Madrigal

[ChiSox59]

Giolito should have started game 1.  TLR basically punted game 1 thinking we'd get shut down by LMJ.  Had Gio gone game 1, who knows what happens.  Maybe we still lose, but he would have also gone game 4 in that scenario and things could have looked a lot of different.  Water under the bridge, but another mis-step in the LONGGGGGGGGG list of missteps for our storied manager in 2021. 

[Buehrle>Wood]

11 hours ago, Quin said:

I'm agreeing with Balta here. Gio and Rodon had pitched well against the Astros this year, Lynn hadn't. Minute Maid might as well be Lynn's House of Horrors.

Plus, it's not like Lynn is a clear cut ace - Gio, Rodon, and Lynn have all been All-Stars for the Sox, Rodon's getting Cy Young votes, and Gio was the best in the second half.

Rodon wasn't ready. They've gone into this in detail at this point. Dylan Cease is worse vs the Astros than even Lance Lynn is. Giolito game 2 game the best opportunity to pull out a win in Houston. With how he pitched, it wasn't good enough and certainly wasn't going to be good enough in game 1 either.

We lost because literally all the starters were terrible. It didn't matter when they were used or not.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Rodon wasn't ready. They've gone into this in detail at this point. Dylan Cease is worse vs the Astros than even Lance Lynn is. Giolito game 2 game the best opportunity to pull out a win in Houston. With how he pitched, it wasn't good enough and certainly wasn't going to be good enough in game 1 either.

We lost because literally all the starters were terrible. It didn't matter when they were used or not.

Those 3 days did not suddenly heal Rodon, and the days they chose to use as his starts and throwing days were not dictated by Jesus. They even moved around the date of his last start once.

[hi8is]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Those 3 days did not suddenly heal Rodon, and the days they chose to use as his starts and throwing days were not dictated by Jesus. They even moved around the date of his last start once.

Post game 4 he said he had “turned the corner” in the pst 72 hours.

[Buehrle>Wood]

6 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Post game 4 he said he had “turned the corner” in the pst 72 hours.

Yep and La Russa and company said as much before game 4. He wasn't even throwing complete bullpen sessions before then

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Yep and La Russa and company said as much before game 4. He wasn't even throwing complete bullpen sessions before then

His lack of pitching recently probably hurt his command and his slider wasn't sharp. He wasn't awful, but the walks and HBP killed him, just like it did every White Sox pitcher in the series. Hopefully what was holding him back was just fatigue. Even if the White Sox don't re-sign him, I hope he can have a productive career. He definitely has unreal stuff when he's at full capacity.

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Well, it’s a darn shame that those pitching schedules in September were handed down on stone tablets by a burning bush on top of a mountain in the Middle East, because otherwise we might have adjusted the September schedule to make things work once we decided we were going to go for the 3 seed.

Well at least you dropped the HFA charade.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 10/10/2021 at 12:51 PM, hi8is said:

 

I'm glad you posted this. I'll be the 1st to say I thought Madrigal was replaceable. I didn't say much about the trade at the time it was made  because I wasn't really sure how I felt about it. The way Kimbrel was pitching it made sense but the cost was astronomical in years, money and talent. I only said in the thread there were rumors about Madrigal not fitting in and also wondered if the Cubs ate any money and thought it was an overpay if the Sox had to pay full salary .

But back to this highlight reel. It reminds us that Nick was not the terrible base runner revisionist history is suggesting. Sure he made blunders on the bases but most were made out of aggressiveness and he would learn to pick and choose his spots. One thing Madrigal seemed to do is always hustled. He actually had a few hustle doubles and a couple of his triples were to LCF . Those are balls some of our veteran players with speed don't bust it out of the box on and settle for doubles and singles. Anderson had 2 triples in 527 PA's. Moncada 1 in 520 AB . Madrigal 4 in 200 AB. By looking at that one might ask who has more power and speed among those 3 ?

He was also killing it right before the injury, getting more selective as a hitter , driving the ball more, hitting .391 .440 .609 in June with 1.049 OPS. If you go from May 17th to when he was injured he was hitting .365 ( 27 for 74 with 6 walks , 5 doubles, 2 triples and 2 HR's).

On May 16th he was batting .270 .304 .341 .647 and his last game on June 9th he had raised that to .305 .348 . 425 .774 .

The Sox won more with him than without him . Anyone that praises Moncada for his 4.0 WAR season should be praising Madrigal because he was on the same path as Moncada just with a different way of getting there.

[CentralChamps21]

The question for Madrigal isn't his ability to produce at a high level. The question for Madrigal is his ability to do it for an entire season. A guy on a 4.0 WAR path isn't useful if he's injured more than half the time.

[hi8is]

4 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

The question for Madrigal isn't his ability to produce at a high level. The question for Madrigal is his ability to do it for an entire season. A guy on a 4.0 WAR path isn't useful if he's injured more than half the time.

Depends on who you ask. Many said he sucks and will never be above replacement level. I for one think that’s absurd and also believe his injuries were in the “fluke” category. No long term health concerns in my book.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

The question for Madrigal isn't his ability to produce at a high level. The question for Madrigal is his ability to do it for an entire season. A guy on a 4.0 WAR path isn't useful if he's injured more than half the time.

We know this all too well for some of our players such as Eloy and Robert chief among them. But you what you said about his ability to produce at a high level is one of the things always in question around here. That's why I had to post about how he was changing my mind in that regard because it won't change anyone's mind that he sucked at all things except his slap hitting tool .

Edited October 14, 2021 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CentralChamps21]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

We know this all too well for some of our players such as Eloy and Robert chief among them. But you what you said about his ability to produce at a high level is one of the things always in question around here. That's why I had to post about how he was changing my mind in that regard because it won't change anyone's mind that he sucked at all things except his slap hitting tool .

He had clearly changed his approach. He'd moved away from his "never swing and miss" approach to sacrificing some of that in order to hit more doubles and even a couple homers. He still had a very low swing and miss rate, but not to the extreme that he had previously. He was finding that sweet spot between contact and power.

That said, he has to prove he can do it for a whole season before I'm really going to be upset that he's gone.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, CentralChamps21 said:

He had clearly changed his approach. He'd moved away from his "never swing and miss" approach to sacrificing some of that in order to hit more doubles and even a couple homers. He still had a very low swing and miss rate, but not to the extreme that he had previously. He was finding that sweet spot between contact and power.

That said, he has to prove he can do it for a whole season before I'm really going to be upset that he's gone.

I know what you're talking about because I was in the same place always suggesting they trade him. However I never dreamed that a guy with so much potential and years left would be traded for another vet again the Sox giving up control and years of a guy who could be a special player for a guy with his best years behind him and eating a bunch of money  while also throwing in another kid with control who showed a lot of promise as a reliever.

Robert was injured his 1st 2 years in the minors and some of the same people who hate Madrigal were questioning Robert's power. Injuries suck and make us question durability and ability but the Sox just seem to keep trading kids with potential for old guys and Tatis and Semien have taught them nothing. They did the same thing with Dunning for Lynn. That one worked out because they resigned Lynn but if he gets injured or regresses like Keuchel that will change some minds.

It's not so much about missing the player  it's about the same dopes doing the same thing over and over again. I've never been one to think prospects are untouchable. The Sox have a bunch of DH's in Eloy , Vaughn and Sheets and Mercedes while he was playing good.  Those are the prospects you trade to get more well rounded guys.  Trade time for time, not time for old, expensive and no time.

[ChiSox59]

26 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

The question for Madrigal isn't his ability to produce at a high level. The question for Madrigal is his ability to do it for an entire season. A guy on a 4.0 WAR path isn't useful if he's injured more than half the time.

I am not ready to write Madrigal off as some oft-injured can never stay healthy guy.  But I get why some people hang onto that.  He's hasn't proven he can stay heathy.

However - not sure how you can say the bolded about a pre-arb dude.  IF he can play 80 game and produce 2 WAR, that has value.  Quite a bit of it actually.  Certainly not as much as he would have if he could be relied for a full season, but to say a guy making $650k and producing 4 WAR per 162 GP "isn't useful" is kind of silly. 

 

[CentralChamps21]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

I am not ready to write Madrigal off as some oft-injured can never stay healthy guy.  But I get why some people hang onto that.  He's hasn't proven he can stay heathy.

However - not sure how you can say the bolded about a pre-arb dude.  IF he can play 80 game and produce 2 WAR, that has value.  Quite a bit of it actually.  Certainly not as much as he would have if he could be relied for a full season, but to say a guy making $650k and producing 4 WAR per 162 GP "isn't useful" is kind of silly. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I know what you're talking about because I was in the same place always suggesting they trade him. However I never dreamed that a guy with so much potential and years left would be traded for another vet again the Sox giving up control and years of a guy who could be a special player for a guy with his best years behind him and eating a bunch of money  while also throwing in another kid with control who showed a lot of promise as a reliever.

Robert was injured his 1st 2 years in the minors and some of the same people who hate Madrigal were questioning Robert's power. Injuries suck and make us question durability and ability but the Sox just seem to keep trading kids with potential for old guys and Tatis and Semien have taught them nothing. They did the same thing with Dunning for Lynn. That one worked out because they resigned Lynn but if he gets injured or regresses like Keuchel that will change some minds.

It's not so much about missing the player  it's about the same dopes doing the same thing over and over again. I've never been one to think prospects are untouchable. The Sox have a bunch of DH's in Eloy , Vaughn and Sheets and Mercedes while he was playing good.  Those are the prospects you trade to get more well rounded guys.  Trade time for time, not time for old, expensive and no time.

I'm not saying that the Madrigal-Kimbrel trade was good. It was awful. I argued that the year after a 60 game season had too many question marks to be trading for a rental. Madrigal could have been traded in the offseason for someone with more control. Or the Sox could have gotten a 2B who can also play OF, and then given Madrigal a shot while being able to shift things around and move on without him if he couldn't make it through a full season. There were other options besides trade him in July 2021 and commit to him for 6 more years.

[Harry Chappas]

30 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Depends on who you ask. Many said he sucks and will never be above replacement level. I for one think that’s absurd and also believe his injuries were in the “fluke” category. No long term health concerns in my book.

1 is fluke 2 is a concern 3 is Jim McMahon territory

Robert and Eloy are in category 2 and Nick is in category 3. 

How do you dislocate your shoulder sliding feet first? 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Harry Chappas

[T R U]

11 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

1 is fluke 2 is a concern 3 is Jim McMahon territory

Robert and Eloy are in category 2 and Nick is in category 3. 

How do you dislocate your shoulder sliding feet first? 

By landing wrong or at a weird angle? Its not ridiculous that an arm plants into the ground on a feet first slide.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

1 is fluke 2 is a concern 3 is Jim McMahon territory

Robert and Eloy are in category 2 and Nick is in category 3. 

How do you dislocate your shoulder sliding feet first? 

If you put Madrigal in category 3 you have to put Eloy and maybe even Robert in category 3. Eloy has had so many injuries that no one around here wanted him playing LF ever again because he might hurt Robert in the process . There were only a few ( myself included) that said get real Eloy will be playing LF when he comes back. Robert while hitting extremely well when he returned , didn't look like the same runner and actually had to be removed from the last playoff game because of problems in the area his big injury happened in. Don't forget Robert was also injured a couple of times in 2018 with left thumb sprains in which he played basically the same amount he did this year.

[KipWellsFan]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Giolito should have started game 1.  TLR basically punted game 1 thinking we'd get shut down by LMJ.  Had Gio gone game 1, who knows what happens.  Maybe we still lose, but he would have also gone game 4 in that scenario and things could have looked a lot of different.  Water under the bridge, but another mis-step in the LONGGGGGGGGG list of missteps for our storied manager in 2021. 

Soxtalk needs to banish the term "punting games" in 2022.

For the whole second half of the season every time someone had an issue with one of La Russa's decisions they would say we are "punting" the game. Come on, I'm not a La Russa defender but starting Lynn over Giolito was NOT basically punting game one. Sheesh!

Even if you are a believer that we rested guys too often, the same usually applied in regular season games.

[poppysox]

On 10/13/2021 at 12:16 PM, The Kids Can Play said:

No kidding and thanks for all the scenarios. However that was not my point. I would have never traded Madrigal. If he was a bust or just a average utility player, then so be it. My point is the Sox should have been in control of that outcome on their watch and not the Cubs. We invested a first round pick, 4th overall to get him. A MLB franchise typically does not throw away their high draft pick assets after only 2.5 years. The smart and winning clubs don't do that, until they know they did everything possible to get the maximum out of that player. 

A team can work on helping a player get into better condition and more flexible to avoid injuries. They can also help that player with his fundamentals like fielding. However, what they can't do is teach a player to have that rare and amazing hand eye coordination that Madrigal had to make contact and get hits. 

I fully agree with you...but unfortunately, that horse has left the barn.

[ChiSox59]

20 minutes ago, KipWellsFan said:

Soxtalk needs to banish the term "punting games" in 2022.

Well then maybe the manager shouldn't continually put his team in a terrible position to win games.  

[CentralChamps21]

28 minutes ago, KipWellsFan said:

Soxtalk needs to banish the term "punting games" in 2022.

For the whole second half of the season every time someone had an issue with one of La Russa's decisions they would say we are "punting" the game. Come on, I'm not a La Russa defender but starting Lynn over Giolito was NOT basically punting game one. Sheesh!

Even if you are a believer that we rested guys too often, the same usually applied in regular season games.

I agree. Suggesting that Tony punted game 1 is giving him too much credit by suggesting that he actually knew Lynn was the worse option.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

The decision to trade him was made a while ago and when he got hurt (again)  the decision changed to do they trade him while injured and still has some value or wait for him to come back and risk him losing a step he can't afford to lose and his value craters.  They obviously decided to trade him while injured and get what the could. It was a good decision. 

[ron883]

5 hours ago, hi8is said:

Post game 4 he said he had “turned the corner” in the pst 72 hours.

You're wrong, TLR is wrong, Rodon is wrong, and Balta is right. 

[hi8is]

2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

It was a good decision. 

That’s speculative at best currently and it’s very possible in the future you won’t have these types of statements to stand on.