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loidwalden

Madrigal

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46 minutes ago, fathom said:

In a series where lack of extra base hits is hurting the offense, I don’t think Madrigal is a big loss.

That's one way to spin or you could say it was definitely an overpay that has been a tragic trading deadline since he got here .

I will say that Hahn or the organization are still wrapped up in relief pitchers being way too important. It hurt in the draft, payroll and it's hurting in winning games.

I was fine with getting more relief pitching but I threw a lot of names out there that would 've cost a lot less before the Kimbrel trade became reality.

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4 minutes ago, The Grinder said:

Like the Sammy Sosa trade. The Cubs saw us coming. Totally fleeced 

Kimbrel 

Eloy

Cease

 

v

 

Codi Heuer

Madrigal

Quintanna


we are still ahead, but they made up some ground. We could not help ourselves I guess.  Maybe Hahn should take note that he wins trades when HE is the one trading the veteran.

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Can't blame the front office imo. 

Kimbrel had a sub 1 Era with the cubs and 5+ with sox, nobody could have predicted that collapse. 

Also let's not forget madrigal now had his second season ended by a severe injury so maybe he is injury prone going forward. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I would think that the White Sox won't pickup Kimbrels option. They also won't pickup Ceasars option. That being said, who will be the second baseman for the White Sox in 2022?

I would prepare yourself to be very disappointed with those assumptions

Edited by Flash Tizzle

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

Can't blame the front office imo. 

Kimbrel had a sub 1 Era with the cubs and 5+ with sox, nobody could have predicted that collapse. 

Also let's not forget madrigal now had his second season ended by a severe injury so maybe he is injury prone going forward. 

lol.

I swear this has to be a troll job at this point.

I literally pointed out in the trade thread that Kimbrel was not the same pitcher and had a good stretch of baseball but he was the same volatile guy he had been the two year prior and was just on a good streak of 30 innings. He had been trending downward for 5 years. His volatility was very well known at this point. I'm amazed someone could possibly come in and say "can't blame the front office" for giving up 12 years of control for a guy who has been one of the worst relievers in baseball since the acquisition. It's literally their job to do that.

"Who could have possibly seen this coming?"

Uh, like 10 random strangers on an internet message board.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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1 hour ago, fathom said:

In a series where lack of extra base hits is hurting the offense, I don’t think Madrigal is a big loss.

He couldn’t have played this series anyways, but he is a 110 OPS+ guy for his career, and is cheap. The easy to replace line has been conspicuously absent since  Hernandez and his 10 times bigger paychecks started struggling. I think Madrigal is going to be a really solid player. Everything was improving when he got hurt. His power, his defense. It is really going to hurt in a couple of years when the other guys get really expensive and they could use Madrigals 1st year or 2nd year arb numbers. It is not like JR is ever going to flirt with the luxury tax. He wouldn’t even do that with the Bulls where he was printing money.

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Posted (edited)

The Madrigal trade will go down as one of the worst in White Sox history. I hated it when it went down and nothing has changed.

Edited by The Mighty Mite
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7 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

The Madrigal trade will go down as one of the worst in White Sox history. I hated it when it went down and nothing has changed.

Kimbrel still has a shot of redeeming himself but it is not looking good. The funny thing is Hahn has made a couple trades so bad the Semien and Bassett for 1 year of Shark never even gets mentioned in his blunders.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Kimbrel still has a shot of redeeming himself but it is not looking good. The funny thing is Hahn has made a couple trades so bad the Semien and Bassett for 1 year of Shark never even gets mentioned in his blunders.

Well I was hoping Kimbrel would be able to rehab his trade value in the post season at least. Best laid plans and all that. Kimbrel has never been a good pitcher until he became a closer. If Sox plan was to alter his success pattern, ridiculous. Whoever said we can’t blame the FO is being generous. 
 

yeah, I mean, the Sox get blown up in asset trades to aquire veterans, yet the beat goes on and on. They will do it again next year, mark my words. 

Edited by Chick Mercedes
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Posted (edited)

This trade sucked, but it's time for the Sox to move on. It's a sunk cost. They have to decline options on Kimbrel and Hernandez. I can imagine a lot of better ways to invest $22 million.

And, remember, this was the good part. Gonna suck watching Heuer and Madrigal for the next 5 years up north.

As far as second base next year: I predict Romy Gonzalez takes the job at some point.

Edited by Timmy U
typo

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8 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

This trade sucked, but it's time for the Sox to move on. It's a sunk cost. They have to decline options on Kimbrel and Hernandez. I can imagine a lot of better ways to inves $22 million.

And, remember, this was the good part. Gonna suck watching Heuer and Madrigal for the next 5 years up north.

As far as second base next year: I predict Romy Gonzalez takes the job at some point.

Fwiw I agree with this. The risk of Kimbrel being unmovable is too high.

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I wish They would disclose how much they are paying the corpse of TLR to be prompt up in the dugout every game. 

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35 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

The Madrigal trade will go down as one of the worst in White Sox history. I hated it when it went down and nothing has changed.

I was one of the few who liked Madrigal. I also hated Kimbrel.

It wont be one of the worst, but it definitely backfired. The biggest issue was Kimbrel was not great last year so you were buying him extremely high and he wasn't a perfect fit.

Had they dealt Madrigal for a major offensive weapon it at least would have made sense.

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Im not saying Nick is going to b a superstar. I mean we thought the same of Gordon Beckham. We all knew how he ended up 

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1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

I would think that the White Sox won't pickup Kimbrels option. They also won't pickup Ceasars option. That being said, who will be the second baseman for the White Sox in 2022?

Both options will be declined day 1

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4 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

I was one of the few who liked Madrigal. I also hated Kimbrel.

It wont be one of the worst, but it definitely backfired. The biggest issue was Kimbrel was not great last year so you were buying him extremely high and he wasn't a perfect fit.

Had they dealt Madrigal for a major offensive weapon it at least would have made sense.

I think the need for bullpen help was obvious and so adding a top flight arm even after Tepera made sense to me. Clears them to move Kopech to a starting role the last 2 months, and now you have 4 starters in the playoffs even if Rodon can’t go. But not only did we not do that, but Kopech isn’t even allowed to pitch. Add in the horrible job by the big league scouts and coaches assessing him beforehand…and yeah, this wasn’t good.

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10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think the need for bullpen help was obvious and so adding a top flight arm even after Tepera made sense to me. Clears them to move Kopech to a starting role the last 2 months, and now you have 4 starters in the playoffs even if Rodon can’t go. But not only did we not do that, but Kopech isn’t even allowed to pitch. Add in the horrible job by the big league scouts and coaches assessing him beforehand…and yeah, this wasn’t good.

 

They were never going to let Kopech start this season. The best they could do was limit innings until the very end and then try and get him 2-3 in each relief appearance. Even if you thought bullpen was a need, Kimbrel was a terrible option. I know I got yelled out of threads months ago but his stats were really poor in 2019 and 2020. In addition it usually (although may be anecdotal) seems that closers who are moved to set up underperform. 

Had the Sox traded garbage for him it would have been worth the risk. But Heuer actually outperformed Kimbrel after the trade. So the Sox actually made themselves worse.

Just for comparison;

 

Heuer in 2020:
 

3 0 1.000 1.52 21 0 4 0 0 1 23.2 12 4 4 1 9 0 25

 

Kimbrel in 2020:

 

0 1 .000 5.28 18 0 11 0 0 2 15.1 10 9 9 2 12 1 28

 

You basically were giving up on the younger cheaper player who was having a bad 2021, for the older more expensive player who was having a good 2021. I really hate being negative about trades because hindsight is easy, but when I first read it I actually felt sick to my stomach because of how brutal it was. It reminded me of something @Steve9347would do to someone in OOTP. Convince them to take the old player who is having a good half season and grab the younger players who are having a down year. 
 

Sorry to bring you into this Steve, hope youre living the good life. 

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24 minutes ago, Soxfest said:

Both options will be declined day 1

Epic fail since I'm sure they expected they'd get something in return for Kimbrel in the offseason or next trade deadline.  But you've got to accept the option to do that.

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Teams are going to line up for Kimbrel this off season.  They're smart enough not to let a 2 month sample size affect their evaluation on a player of Kimbrel's caliber.  Plus when they really dig in and understand just how horribly the Sox have handled his situation they'll be even more in on him. 

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3 hours ago, loidwalden said:

How does that Kimbrel, Madrigal trade look now....dumb

Exactly the same as it looked to virtually all of us at the time....it stunk.  First, you take an aging career closer who had a dominant 3+ months in the last 3 years and make him a set up guy.  Then you overpay with Madrigal AND Heuer.  Sprinkle in TLR's love for a "stacked" bullpen and this is what we get.  We could have taken Madrigal and Heuer and gotten the RF we have needed forever.  That's OK, Leury will be fine in RF, right Tony?!?!? 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, PitchatRisktoZisk said:

Exactly the same as it looked to virtually all of us at the time....it stunk.  First, you take an aging career closer who had a dominant 3+ months in the last 3 years and make him a set up guy.  Then you overpay with Madrigal AND Heuer.  Sprinkle in TLR's love for a "stacked" bullpen and this is what we get.  We could have taken Madrigal and Heuer and gotten the RF we have needed forever.  That's OK, Leury will be fine in RF, right Tony?!?!? 

Im pretty sure Tony wasn't the one asking for another closer. It goes against his entire philosophy of having 1 guy finish games.

This was all Hahn.

Edited by Soxbadger

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5 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Teams are going to line up for Kimbrel this off season.  They're smart enough not to let a 2 month sample size affect their evaluation on a player of Kimbrel's caliber.  Plus when they really dig in and understand just how horribly the Sox have handled his situation they'll be even more in on him. 

Not sure if serious.
Picking up his option is something of a gamble. Sure someone will grab him, but how much salary will the Sox have to eat? Plus we're going to need a quality prospect in the deal.

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1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

Im pretty sure Tony wasn't the one asking for another closer. It goes against his entire philosophy of having 1 guy finish games.

This was all Hahn.

There were all sorts of comments from both TLR and Hahn that Kimbrel was the #1 target for TLR/Hahn/KW. TLR was definitely in support, even if his comments today would indicate otherwise. 

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1 minute ago, FoxForce2 said:

Not sure if serious.
Picking up his option is something of a gamble. Sure someone will grab him, but how much salary will the Sox have to eat? Plus we're going to need a quality prospect in the deal.

Sox pick up option...trade Hendriks for a haul....slide the future hall of famer Kimbrel into the only role he's comfortable with. 😎

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23 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Teams are going to line up for Kimbrel this off season.  They're smart enough not to let a 2 month sample size affect their evaluation on a player of Kimbrel's caliber.  Plus when they really dig in and understand just how horribly the Sox have handled his situation they'll be even more in on him. 

@Look at Ray Ray Run in case you need something to make you chuckle, read this :lol:

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