The problem with the top 6 in the lineup

[CentralChamps21]

Individually, Tim Anderson, Luis Robert, Jose Abreu, Yasmani Grandal, Eloy Jimenez and Yoan Moncada are all very valuable players, but they may actually be a case where the whole is not as great as the sum of the parts.

As a group, they have very similar weaknesses: swinging at too many pitches outside the zone, too many ground balls, and lack of power vs RHP.

How many times this season have we seen this group go 2-20 or something like that against a righty with a decent slider, even one who has a 4+ ERA against other opponents. We usually end up directing our vitriol at Cesar Hernandez or Leury Garcia during these games, so we may not have noticed how bad our top 6 did.

Is this offseason the time to see if one of them can get traded for a lefty power bat and/or a controlled starting pitcher?

I would hate to see any of them go, but I would understand why if it happens.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Individually, Tim Anderson, Luis Robert, Jose Abreu, Yasmani Grandal, Eloy Jimenez and Yoan Moncada are all very valuable players, but they may actually be a case where the whole is not as great as the sum of the parts.

As a group, they have very similar weaknesses: swinging at too many pitches outside the zone, too many ground balls, and lack of power vs RHP.

How many times this season have we seen this group go 2-20 or something like that against a righty with a decent slider, even one who has a 4+ ERA against other opponents. We usually end up directing our vitriol at Cesar Hernandez or Leury Garcia during these games, so we may not have noticed how bad our top 6 did.

Is this offseason the time to see if one of them can get traded for a lefty power bat and/or a controlled starting pitcher?

I would hate to see any of them go, but I would understand why if it happens.

Anderson, Abreu and Robert are going nowhere.  Eloy, maybe.  Not many LH hitting 3B, so hard to get rid of Moncada or Grandal for that matter.   But what is Jimenez’s value at this point?   65-70 cents on the dollar, just like Madrigal/Heuer.

Buying high and selling low over the long term usually ends up in a limited roster.

Same with trading Vaughn.

Of course, Sheets has some pop but no position as the roster is currently constituted.

Edited October 9, 2021 by caulfield12

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Individually, Tim Anderson, Luis Robert, Jose Abreu, Yasmani Grandal, Eloy Jimenez and Yoan Moncada are all very valuable players, but they may actually be a case where the whole is not as great as the sum of the parts.

As a group, they have very similar weaknesses: swinging at too many pitches outside the zone, too many ground balls, and lack of power vs RHP.

How many times this season have we seen this group go 2-20 or something like that against a righty with a decent slider, even one who has a 4+ ERA against other opponents. We usually end up directing our vitriol at Cesar Hernandez or Leury Garcia during these games, so we may not have noticed how bad our top 6 did.

Is this offseason the time to see if one of them can get traded for a lefty power bat and/or a controlled starting pitcher?

I would hate to see any of them go, but I would understand why if it happens.

The top of the order has balled out in the playoffs. 

Next.

[CentralChamps21]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Anderson, Abreu and Robert are going nowhere.  Eloy, maybe.  Not many LH hitting 3B, so hard to get rid of Moncada or Grandal for that matter.   But what is Jimenez’s value at this point?   65-70 cents on the dollar, just like Madrigal/Heuer.

Buying high and selling low over the long term usually ends up in a limited roster.

Same with trading Vaughn.

Of course, Sheets has some pop but no position as the roster is currently constituted.

We make a lot of assumptions on this board about how much a player's trade value has gone up or down. We don't really know that trading Eloy or Vaughn would be selling low. If this group of six is going to stay together and they don't change their plate approach, we're going to get the same results, except next year Detroit is going to be a lot better and we won't be able to coast to a division title.

[CentralChamps21]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The top of the order has balled out in the playoffs. 

Next.

No extra base hits and lots of grounders, that has resulted in 5 runs over 2 games is not balling out.

 

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The top of the order has balled out in the playoffs. 

Next.

Besides Grandal

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Imagine writing a thread complaining about how Abreu, Anderson and Robert have performed this post season. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

Besides Grandal

Fair, kinda... Yaz has crushed the ball a few times in big spots but hit it right at people. Some bad breaks. But he's gotta step up and put it where they aren't. I'll give you some of that. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

No extra base hits and lots of grounders, that has resulted in 5 runs over 2 games is not balling out.

 

Uh, 1400+ ops, 1000+ ops, 900 ops. Next thread. 

[CentralChamps21]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Imagine writing a thread complaining about how Abreu, Anderson and Robert have performed this post season. 

A bunch of singles, they've been three Nick Madrigals so far this series.

Plus, most of them were vs the lefty, find a team that will throw 4 straight lefties in a playoff series and this lineup will deliver for you.

Edited October 9, 2021 by WhiteSoxFan1993

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

A bunch of singles, they've been three Nick Madrigals so far this series.

Yeah, how will a team ever score runs with a 444 obp, a 778!!! Obp and a 556 OBP.

You should honestly just log out and change your password if you're going to whine about those 3 and you should consider not being a fan of the sox anymore if you're going to cry about luis robert production being too many singles.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

A bunch of singles, they've been three Nick Madrigals so far this series.

Plus, most of them were vs the lefty, find a team that will throw 4 straight lefties in a playoff series and this lineup will deliver for you.

They had 5 hits in the first game. The team had 7. 

[CentralChamps21]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, how will a team ever score runs with a 444 obp, a 778!!! Obp and a 556 OBP.

You should honestly just log out and change your password if you're going to whine about those 3 and you should consider not being a fan of the sox anymore if you're going to cry about luis robert production being too many singles.

If that's coming entirely from singles and a few walks, it's hard to score runs. Look at the scores of the games. It's also about everybody collectively. Luis robert having a bunch of singles works fine if you have one other guy to get extra base hits to drive him in, but look at how many runs Robert scored off those singles.

This team isn't built to beat RHP with decent sliders. That's reality.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

If that's coming entirely from singles and a few walks, it's hard to score runs. Look at the scores of the games. It's also about everybody collectively. Luis robert having a bunch of singles works fine if you have one other guy to get extra base hits to drive him in, but look at how many runs Robert scored off those singles.

This team isn't built to beat RHP with decent sliders. That's reality.

I just can't with you and this nonsense today. Have a good one. 

The bottom 3 in the sox order are 2-22 with 9 k's and 0 bb's. bottom 4, 3-30 with 11ks

Edited October 9, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[CentralChamps21]

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I just can't with you and this nonsense today. Have a good one. 

The bottom 3 in the sox order are 2-22 with 9 k's and 0 bb's. bottom 4, 3-30 with 11ks

Obviously the bottom 3 in the order need to be upgraded. There's no question about that.

Unless you fill all three spots with guys who have low o-swing rates, low ground ball rates, and good power vs RHP, it isn't going to be enough of an improvement.

You keep pointing out individual performances like Robert's and that plays exactly into what I'm saying. Individually, they're good, but collectively, they aren't getting it done.

One guy with a great OPS that comes entirely from singles and walks is a very good player. A whole bunch of them strung together in a lineup is not a very good lineup.

[Unknown]

We're bailing on Eloy now? Mercy

[NWINFan]

55 minutes ago, Unknown said:

We're bailing on Eloy now? Mercy

I would hope not, but his injury denied him at-bats and hurt his development. He has hit a wall at the worst time. But he has too much talent to give up on him. Hopefully, he stays healthy next year and truly learns how to become dominating major league hitter.

[wegner]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The top of the order has balled out in the playoffs. 

Next.

This is the 2nd playoff series in a row where TA has gotten the job done at the top of the lineup. 

Unfortunately this year it seems to me that as goes Grandal, so goes the offense.

[Bob Sacamano]

I’d probably go with this lineup tomorrow:

TA SS

Yoan 3B

Robert CF

Abreu 1B

Grandal C

Eloy LF

Sheets DH

Engel RF

Hernandez 2B

[SonofaRoache]

1 hour ago, wegner said:

This is the 2nd playoff series in a row where TA has gotten the job done at the top of the lineup. 

Unfortunately this year it seems to me that as goes Grandal, so goes the offense.

How many XBH's and home runs? This is the playoffs and those things matter. Over the course of a season our guys get their numbers. But this isn't the course of a season. We need power ASAP. 

[SonofaRoache]

2 hours ago, Unknown said:

We're bailing on Eloy now? Mercy

No reason to bail on Eloy. But at the same time these guys are gonna be defined by the playoffs now. We aren't a rebuilding up and coming team anymore. If we turn into the Twins and can't win playoff series or games, none of this will matter much at the end. 

[ChiSox59]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Anderson, Abreu and Robert are going nowhere.  Eloy, maybe.  Not many LH hitting 3B, so hard to get rid of Moncada or Grandal for that matter.   But what is Jimenez’s value at this point?   65-70 cents on the dollar, just like Madrigal/Heuer.

Buying high and selling low over the long term usually ends up in a limited roster.

Same with trading Vaughn.

Of course, Sheets has some pop but no position as the roster is currently constituted.

Signing Conforto and finding a good defender at 2B that is switch hitter or hits from the left side would go a long way to helping make this team more well rounded. I don’t think we need to subtract from the core to make that happen. But need to fill in RF and 2B with guys that do things we struggle at. 

[wegner]

39 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

How many XBH's and home runs? This is the playoffs and those things matter. Over the course of a season our guys get their numbers. But this isn't the course of a season. We need power ASAP. 

I believe the answer to your question is a big fat zero.  Need the power back for these next 3 games.

[Colome's Hat]

Eloy is going nowhere and should go nowhere.  This season isn't a really a great indicator of how he will do.  He has always started hot, cooled off, turned it on at the end of the season.  His first two seasons were pretty damn impressive.  And to be honest, dude has gotten much better in LF.

[Colome's Hat]

2 hours ago, manbearpuig said:

I’d probably go with this lineup tomorrow:

TA SS

Yoan 3B

Robert CF

Abreu 1B

Grandal C

Eloy LF

Sheets DH

Engel RF

Hernandez 2B

Yes.  Hernandez put together a genuinely good at bat which resulted in a walk.  He has killed the Astros over his career. Nothing to lose.  If they really want Leury, put him in RF and put Engel in after the sixth inning.