ron883 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: The White Sox were 3rd in baseball in wRC+. This is a classic example of confirmation bias in statistical analysis. The Sox had a better wRC+ than every team on that list but for Houston and Toronto. They're problem was not offensive production or hitting the ball in the air. If guys like Eloy hit less grounders would he have been better? Sure. Is the offense some glaring issue that needs mass overhaul and correction? No, if the Sox are 3rd or better in wRC+ next year they'll be very good. If Abreu hits into less GIDPs, this team is in a great spot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Just now, ron883 said: If Abreu hits into less GIDPs, this team is in a great spot. The point remains. Jimmy claiming that is some glaring issue when the Sox outperformed the majority of teams on that list offensively just shows someone misrepresenting the importance of a singular statistic. The White Sox problem was that they were a poor defensive team (in part due to very poor positioning all year) and their SP - which was a strength in the regular season - let them down in the playoffs. The offense, all season, ranked near the top of baseball. Could they improve in some spots? Sure. Are they susceptible to right handers with sliders due to the make up of their lineup? Yup. Is there ground ball rate preventing them from being a good offense and the reason they're not in the playoffs? Absolutely not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: What was I wrong about exactly? And again pal, Hosmer wasn't delegated to the bench BECAUSE of injuries for the Padres. Hosmer - 151 games player, ZERO fWAR. That's Caufields guy; stans for him as if he was Frank Thomas. That you would give Cease a playoff start based on his fWAR being 18th or 22nd in the majors or whatever it was a month or two ago. That Kopech would have come in for Giolito in Game 2 and dominate…there’s just no reason to believe that based on his last two outings. Fastball dominant pitching doesn’t work well against Houston, probably why Tepera did as well as he did. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 How about we actually work with both pitchers AND catchers on stopping or at least neutralizing the running game against us? Just no way you win any 4 game series against an equal or better team giving so many baserunners free bases or opportunities on third with less than two outs…puts so much more pressure on the pitchers, although the pitchers are also at least equally culpable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: That you would give Cease a playoff start based on his fWAR being 18th or 22nd in the majors or whatever it was a month or two ago. That Kopech would have come in for Giolito in Game 2 and dominate…there’s just no reason to believe that based on his last two outings. Fastball dominant pitching doesn’t work well against Houston, probably why Tepera did as well as he did. So Lance Lynn shouldn't have had a start either? Cease shouldn't have started? His problem was command, not that the Astros hit fastballs. Kopech was bad. Guess what? You still give the ball to your best players and hope for the best. All you can control is the process Caufield, not the results. If you didn't notice, every pitcher shit the bed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 32 minutes ago, Tony said: 1. I don't think Keuchel is movable at this point 2. I HATE the idea of killing the value of Crochet on the market by anchoring him with Keuchel. It's just money. You want to win that badly...spend it. I believe we already killed his value when we killed his opportunity to become a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Imagine saying this with a straight face: "It’s the #WhiteSox biggest issue. Not the bad defense, the archaic shifting issues or the lack of left-handed bats. It’s imperative that they hit the ball in the air much more often." The White Sox biggest issue wasn't that they were one of the three worst defensive teams in baseball; no... it was that they were only the third best offense in baseball. It's amazing people analyze and discuss this sport for a hobby/living and they have takes like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said: I believe we already killed his value when we killed his opportunity to become a starter. They absolutely hurt his value, I agree. However there may still be a team out there that is enamored with him enough to make a run at him.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 19 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Man would that be a shitty message to Hendricks. Sign him to be your closer, he does great, trade for a guy to be his setup man, and that guy sucks balls the entire time in multiple roles, then hand the closer role over to the guy that sucks because he might be better in the 9th than he is in the 8th(and this is not guaranteed) Then don’t keep Kimbrel. I’m just saying that if we keep Kimbrel (which is unlikely IMO), we can’t keep throwing him out there in a role he’s not clearly comfortable in as ridiculous as that may seem. Either you hope a move back to the 9th brings out the dominant guy we saw in the first half or go in another direction. As for Liam, some of his value is wasted by being a closer under La Russa. Liam should be used in the highest leverage situations and should see more multi innings outings, but Tony likes a closer who mostly gets just the 9th. He’s getting paid high end closer money regardless of role and has already stated he’ll do what’s best for the team. Optimizing the roster is far more important that protecting one guy’s ego. Ultimately it likely won’t matter as I can’t see them committing that money to Kimbrel with all the other holes we currently have. This was simply a hypothetical “if we keep Craig” comment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) I agree 100 percent with you. The manager is responsible for the lack of drive and awful fundamentals. I think we have the talent. I think it was poorly coached and developed. A perfect example of the lack of fundamentals and discipline is how the Astros stole 5 bases in 4 games and the Astros were 27th in stolen bases this season. Hahn also needs to be able to spend more money to fix some of the holes. We can't keep being a middle of the MLB team in payroll and expect to win a WS title. Edited October 13, 2021 by The Kids Can Play 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: The point remains. Jimmy claiming that is some glaring issue when the Sox outperformed the majority of teams on that list offensively just shows someone misrepresenting the importance of a singular statistic. The White Sox problem was that they were a poor defensive team (in part due to very poor positioning all year) and their SP - which was a strength in the regular season - let them down in the playoffs. The offense, all season, ranked near the top of baseball. Could they improve in some spots? Sure. Are they susceptible to right handers with sliders due to the make up of their lineup? Yup. Is there ground ball rate preventing them from being a good offense and the reason they're not in the playoffs? Absolutely not. I somewhat disagree. There were countless times in crucial situations when they had RISP and all they could do was either strikeout, ground out, or hit into a GIDP. If you notice, most of the the teams on that list have advanced or are still alive in the playoffs and it’s because they can drive in runs in crucial situations by hitting for extra base hits, for homeruns or drive the ball to the outfield for a sac fly. Edited October 13, 2021 by maloney.adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 minute ago, maloney.adam said: I’m going to have to disagree. There were countless times in crucial situations when they had RISP and all they could do was either strikeout, ground out, or hit into a GIDP. If you notice, most of the the teams on that list have advanced or are still alive in the playoffs and it’s because they can drive in runs by hitting for extra base hits or power. Again, the Sox ranked in the top 5 of baseball all year in hitting with RISP. That is a far better representation of the teams abilities with RISP than any 4 game sample. The Sox were VERY good with RISP. People really need to compare their production to other teams, and stop solely watching the White Sox and thinking they are so bad at things. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Imagine saying this with a straight face: "It’s the #WhiteSox biggest issue. Not the bad defense, the archaic shifting issues or the lack of left-handed bats. It’s imperative that they hit the ball in the air much more often." The White Sox biggest issue wasn't that they were one of the three worst defensive teams in baseball; no... it was that they were only the third best offense in baseball. It's amazing people analyze and discuss this sport for a hobby/living and they have takes like this. I mean, they had 20 straight singles at one point in the playoffs. The starters posting a 10.22 ERA was issue No. 1 for me, but I think Jimmy's point is fairly valid given what we saw in the playoffs, albeit a small sample size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Again, the Sox ranked in the top 5 of baseball all year in hitting with RISP. That is a far better representation of the teams abilities with RISP than any 4 game sample. The Sox were VERY good with RISP. People really need to compare their production to other teams, and stop solely watching the White Sox and thinking they are so bad at things. Which Jimmy did here, and you said he was only focusing on one stat too much...Kind of seems like you want it both ways here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: So Lance Lynn shouldn't have had a start either? Cease shouldn't have started? His problem was command, not that the Astros hit fastballs. Kopech was bad. Guess what? You still give the ball to your best players and hope for the best. All you can control is the process Caufield, not the results. If you didn't notice, every pitcher shit the bed. Kopech was bad…in a game 2 days after he threw 50+ High stress pitches to slow down an offense that was on fire and where the manager said he wouldn’t be ready to go. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Just now, Tony said: I mean, they had 20 straight singles at one point in the playoffs. The starters posting a 10.22 ERA was issue No. 1 for me, but I think Jimmy's point is fairly valid given what we saw in the playoffs, albeit a small sample size. There is not a single 4 game stretch of any baseball season that should be used to draw conclusions about a team's abilities. 20 straight singles is an aberration, it's not an indication of some wide ranging issue with an offense that was statistically productive all year despite missing four of their more important bats. Saying that the Sox nearly last ranked defense isn't the issue and instead the 3rd ranked offense is the most glaring issue is pure and utter nonsense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Then don’t keep Kimbrel. I’m just saying that if we keep Kimbrel (which is unlikely IMO), we can’t keep throwing him out there in a role he’s not clearly comfortable in as ridiculous as that may seem. Either you hope a move back to the 9th brings out the dominant guy we saw in the first half or go in another direction. As for Liam, some of his value is wasted by being a closer under La Russa. Liam should be used in the highest leverage situations and should see more multi innings outings, but Tony likes a closer who mostly gets just the 9th. He’s getting paid high end closer money regardless of role and has already stated he’ll do what’s best for the team. Optimizing the roster is far more important that protecting one guy’s ego. Ultimately it likely won’t matter as I can’t see them committing that money to Kimbrel with all the other holes we currently have. This was simply a hypothetical “if we keep Craig” comment. They should have tried trading for Inglesias and a RF instead. Probably a better strategy. Edited October 13, 2021 by maloney.adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Tony said: Which Jimmy did here, and you said he was only focusing on one stat too much...Kind of seems like you want it both ways here. The Sox had a higher wRC+ than 5 of those 7 teams. Are you not paying attention? wRC+ evaluates overall offensive production. Ground ball rate evaluates.... ground ball rate. Hmm, I wonder what is more important and telling. Only in your mind I guess would it be better to be worse overall offensively but hit more fly balls. Edited October 13, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, Tony said: They absolutely hurt his value, I agree. However there may still be a team out there that is enamored with him enough to make a run at him.... He would be a perfect fit for Tampa Bay or Milwaukee, but you’re not getting a ton for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 30 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Say what? Kimbrel is not reliable. There is no guarantee he is anything but shaky next year. The guy should not be handed the closers job. I really don't understand this at all. What Kimbrel showed was not an aberration; it's what he had shown the previous two years before the 35 innings with the Cubs recently. The Sox having 32 million tied up in two relievers would be one of the dumbest decisions this organization has made and that is really saying something. The previous “two years” was also 35 innings and he was actually good the last 15 of them, yet you continue ignore the tiny sample size or legit reasons for his struggles. He then went on to be the best reliever in baseball the first half of this year. Maybe he will suck next year, but I’d wager he returns to form wherever he ends up if given a traditional closer role. Whether that gamble is worth $16M depends on the level of payroll available. I don’t think we can afford to take that risk with where I see payroll going, but someone is going to be interested in him on a 1/$16M deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: The Sox had a higher wRC+ than 5 of those 7 teams. Are you not paying attention? wRC+ evaluates overall offensive production. Ground ball rate evaluates.... ground ball rate. Hmm, I wonder what is more important and telling. Only in your mind I guess would it be better to be worse overall offensively but hit more fly balls. It's pointless aruging with you. Time and time again you've shown once you take a position, you'll die on that hill, no matter how bad you look doing it. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth and disgreading anything anyone says because of ONE STAT, yet claiming Jimmy is too hung up on his one stat. Believe what you want. The fact of the matter is the Sox hit the ball on the ground too much this season, and that exact same issue showed up in the playoffs. The full, healthy lineup slugged .376 in the playoffs against a decent Astros pitching staff. But keep jerking yourself off to offensive numbers put up against the Royals and Tigers pitching staffs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Is it time to debate the merits of accepting Kimbrel's option and putting the more valuable piece, Hendriks, on the market? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrittBurnsFan Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Just now, wegner said: Is it time to debate the merits of accepting Kimbrel's option and putting the more valuable piece, Hendriks, on the market? While it would be risky...I guess you would have to weigh the benefits of the returns each would/could command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Tony said: It's pointless aruging with you. Time and time again you've shown once you take a position, you'll die on that hill, no matter how bad you look doing it. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth and disgreading anything anyone says because of ONE STAT, yet claiming Jimmy is too hung up on his one stat. Believe what you want. The fact of the matter is the Sox hit the ball on the ground too much this season, and that exact same issue showed up in the playoffs. The full, healthy lineup slugged .376 in the playoffs against a decent Astros pitching staff. But keep jerking yourself off to offensive numbers put up against the Royals and Tigers pitching staffs... I agree with Tony here. The Sox beat up on garbage ass teams most of the year. They simply did not get it done against quality opponents. I'd imagine the offensive numbers are inflated due to the horrible AL Central. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralChamps21 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, wegner said: Is it time to debate the merits of accepting Kimbrel's option and putting the more valuable piece, Hendriks, on the market? If you want to have a 3-4 year window, you need to keep the closer signed for 3 more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts