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1 hour ago, Superstar Lamar said:

I think Larussa has to develop an approach with Keuchel that he will never see a batter a third time.  He was allowed to start the 6th too many times this year.  His days as an innings eater are done.

At this point, even if Keuch gets it together, he's looking more and more like a glorified opener. i.e. I don't know how regularly he can go through a good lineup twice.

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19 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

They desperately need to acquire a strong defensive catcher. 

Wait, I thought Grandal was elite defensively or at least that’s what fangraphs tells us

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8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Wait, I thought Grandal was elite defensively or at least that’s what fangraphs tells us

You certainly disappeared in the 2nd half of the season when Grandal was one of the hottest hitters on the planet.  Funny how that works. 

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14 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

You certainly disappeared in the 2nd half of the season when Grandal was one of the hottest hitters on the planet.  Funny how that works. 

I wasn’t on here for most of the season for personal reasons. Wasn’t a great summer for me. Nothing to do with Grandal.

But it’s obvious the Sox need a different catcher starting games in the playoffs next season. There’s a reason LA would bench Grandal in the postseason. He’s not a good defensive catcher, even if his framing metrics somehow make him out to be well above average.

Edited by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

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14 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I believe they have more wiggle room than you are stating, especially if they let Kimbrel walk. They need to spend around $50M for a SP, 2B, RF, and a couple quality bullpen arms to legitimately contend for a WS championship. They can do it if they spend wisely, Hahn doesn't feel the need to settle for mediocrity or worse before Christmas. In this instance, the CBA will help because I'm not sure there will be much of a market until after the CBA is settled beyond signing team/player options.

Current Commitments (includes 2021 / 2022 buyouts & 2022 Arbitration estimates by MLB Trade Rumors): $120.3M for 15 players

  • Old Guys $90.0M (5 Players): Abreu $19.7; Keuchel $19.5; Lynn $18.5; Grandal $18.3; Hendriks $13.0; Kimbrel $1.0 (buyout).
  • Core $30.3M (10 Players): Giolito $7.9; Jimenez $6.5M; Robert $6.0; Lopez $2.8; Bummer $2,5; Engel $2.2; [Cease, Sheets, Kopech and Crochet $0.6M each].

This is why I don't like signing / moving Kimbrel, it's another mistake because the Sox are likely going to eat a substantial portion of that contract. They were the only team to spend more than $11M AAV last season on a reliever (Hand and Rosenthal the only other relievers over $10M).

Anderson & Moncada are owed a combined $22.5M next year.  Add a few more pre-arb guys and we’re quickly we’re sitting around $145M with five spots to fill if we turn down Kimbrel’s option.  So it just comes down to how much total payroll Jerry will support.  At $170M, we’d be looking at $25M to work with to fill all our holes.

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5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Anderson & Moncada are owed a combined $22.5M next year.  Add a few more pre-arb guys and we’re quickly we’re sitting around $145M with five spots to fill if we turn down Kimbrel’s option.  So it just comes down to how much total payroll Jerry will support.  At $170M, we’d be looking at $25M to work with to fill all our holes.

Jsut not the much room to work with unless Jerry is willing to spend with the big boys.  $25M doesn't go very far. 

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27 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Wait, I thought Grandal was elite defensively or at least that’s what fangraphs tells us

Lol…you must really hate Grandal to use Harold as evidence that Grandal sucks.

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7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol…you must really hate Grandal to use Harold as evidence that Grandal sucks.

I’d rather have Martin Maldonado or Roberto Perez as my catcher in the playoffs than Grandal.

Perez is a free agent. Sox better sign him. Let him catch in the playoffs. He knows how to handle a staff, call a game, and shut down the opponent’s run game. Grandal can DH if the Sox are so enamored by his career .605 OPS in the postseason.

Edited by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

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2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Jsut not the much room to work with unless Jerry is willing to spend with the big boys.  $25M doesn't go very far. 

Agree.  It’s going to be a serious challenge.  Hahn will need to get really creative to address all our holes.  A couple things I’m expecting is Keuchel flipped for an overpaid guy at a different position and Burger moved for a controllable reliever.  Will need to make more moves than that though.

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13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Anderson & Moncada are owed a combined $22.5M next year.  Add a few more pre-arb guys and we’re quickly we’re sitting around $145M with five spots to fill if we turn down Kimbrel’s option.  So it just comes down to how much total payroll Jerry will support.  At $170M, we’d be looking at $25M to work with to fill all our holes.

And this is ONE reason (of out a few reasons) why it was moronic to trade away two youngsters for Kimbrel.

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7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’d rather have Martin Maldonado or Roberto Perez as my catcher in the playoffs than Grandal.

Martin Maldonado is a free agent this year.

edit: oops nvm, the Astros and Maldonado agreed to an extension in April.

Edited by maloney.adam

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1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Agree.  It’s going to be a serious challenge.  Hahn will need to get really creative to address all our holes.  A couple things I’m expecting is Keuchel flipped for an overpaid guy at a different position and Burger moved for a controllable reliever.  Will need to make more moves than that though.

Are there really that many holes to fill? And if so does that mean the rebuild has gone off track if there are that many holes and not much money or wriggle room? By the way I am not disagreeing with you just curious what you think.

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1 minute ago, maloney.adam said:

Martin Maldonado is a free agent this year.

Perfect. Give me either of those two guys then. Collins is AAA depth or traded.

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Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Perfect. Give me either of those two guys then. Collins is AAA depth or traded.

No, I went back and edited my post. They agreed to an extension in April.

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1 minute ago, maloney.adam said:

No, I went back and edited my post. They agreed to an extension in April.

Seems like a smart organization like Houston realizes the value of a truly elite defensive catcher come playoff time even if the guy hits like a pitcher. But in reality is Maldonado’s career .544 OPS in the postseason that much different than Grandal’s? Negligible imo when you consider the vast difference between the two in calling a game, blocking/receiving, and run game.

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18 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Lol…you must really hate Grandal to use Harold as evidence that Grandal sucks.

He does.  He posted about it daily for months.  Then went silent when Grandal was one the hottest hitter in the league when healthy. 

That said - no way to deny that Yaz looked helpless controlling the running game in the ALDS.  Big fan of his - and frankly - don't think its all his fault.  But it needs to be remedied, and certainly bringing in a backup catcher that is good defensively should be on the to-do list. 

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Just now, Two-Gun Pete said:

And this is ONE reason (of out a few reasons) why it was moronic to trade away two youngsters for Kimbrel.

Definitely agree with that.  I incorrectly assumed trading Madrigal meant the Sox would bump up the player high enough to easily replace him, but definitely concerned that won’t be the case.

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33 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Anderson & Moncada are owed a combined $22.5M next year.  Add a few more pre-arb guys and we’re quickly we’re sitting around $145M with five spots to fill if we turn down Kimbrel’s option.  So it just comes down to how much total payroll Jerry will support.  At $170M, we’d be looking at $25M to work with to fill all our holes.

Yes, Thank you., I should have included them. I don’t think they have the will to make the moves to adequately fill these holes without going Top 10 / $180-$200m.

Their poor roster construction and players who cannot cover a position beyond DH/1B (Eloy, Sheets, Burger, Grandal, Abreu) limit what they can do without moving one of these players.

Edited by South Side Hit Men

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Just now, ChiSox59 said:

He does.  He posted about it daily for months.  Then went silent when Grandal was one the hottest hitter in the league when healthy. 

That said - no way to deny that Yaz looked helpless controlling the running game in the ALDS.  Big fan of his - and frankly - don't think its all his fault.  But it needs to be remedied, and certainly bringing in a backup catcher that is good defensively should be on the to-do list. 

Went “silent” because my cousin was murdered, my dad was diagnosed with cancer, and I was dealing with health issues of my own all in the span of a few months. But yea it’s because Grandal had a couple good months and I “hate” him, give me a fucking break man.

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12 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

Are there really that many holes to fill? And if so does that mean the rebuild has gone off track if there are that many holes and not much money or wriggle room? By the way I am not disagreeing with you just curious what you think.

Let’s assume we move Kimbrel.  This would be our starting point roster prior to any upgrades and we might only have $25M to upgrade it.  The flaws are basically having no bullpen after the top three guys, questionable back of the rotation with no depth, extremely unbalanced lineup, and terrible OF defense.  Seems problematic to me.

Starting Lineup:

  • 1B: Abreu
  • 2B: Gonzalez
  • SS: Anderson
  • 3B. Moncada
  • LF: Jimenez
  • CF: Robert
  • RF: Vaughn
  • CA: Grandal
  • DH: Sheets

Bench:

  • IF: Mendick
  • IF: Burger
  • OF: Engel
  • CA: Collins

Rotation:

  1. Giolito
  2. Lynn
  3. Cease
  4. Kopech
  5. Keuchel

Bullpen:

  • 9th: Hendriks
  • 8th: Bummer
  • 8th: Crochet
  • 7th: Ruiz
  • 7th: Burr
  • 6th: Foster
  • 6th: Cordero
  • LR: Lopez

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Besides continuing to teach some of these younger arms how to pitch, the Sox have to invest some time in teaching them how to hold runners and slide step. Huge problem for us, and we didn't even get to see how bad it would have been against the Rays. 
 

Crochet’s kick in the full wind up is alright, but please… we don't have time for it with men on base. And he’s not the only one…

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3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Let’s assume we move Kimbrel.  This would be our starting point roster prior to any upgrades and we might only have $25M to upgrade it.  The flaws are basically having no bullpen after the top three guys, questionable back of the rotation with no depth, extremely unbalanced lineup, and terrible OF defense.  Seems problematic to me.

Starting Lineup:

  • 1B: Abreu
  • 2B: Gonzalez
  • SS: Anderson
  • 3B. Moncada
  • LF: Jimenez
  • CF: Robert
  • RF: Vaughn
  • CA: Grandal
  • DH: Sheets

Bench:

  • IF: Mendick
  • IF: Burger
  • OF: Engel
  • CA: Collins

Rotation:

  1. Giolito
  2. Lynn
  3. Cease
  4. Kopech
  5. Keuchel

Bullpen:

  • 9th: Hendriks
  • 8th: Bummer
  • 8th: Crochet
  • 7th: Ruiz
  • 7th: Burr
  • 6th: Foster
  • 6th: Cordero
  • LR: Lopez

If we only have 25 million to spend, we won't be able to really improve.  

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1 minute ago, SouthSideGeorgia said:

Besides continuing to teach some of these younger arms how to pitch, the Sox have to invest some time in teaching them how to hold runners and slide step. Huge problem for us, and we didn't even get to see how bad it would have been against the Rays. 
 

Crochet’s kick in the full wind up is alright, but please… we don't have time for it with men on base. And he’s not the only one…

The entire staff is terrible at it.  Yaz isn't great at controlling the running game, but so much of it is on the pitchers.  Only so much you can do when the pitchers continually allow runners to get unreal jumps. 

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2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Let’s assume we move Kimbrel.  This would be our starting point roster prior to any upgrades and we might only have $25M to upgrade it.  The flaws are basically having no bullpen after the top three guys, questionable back of the rotation with no depth, extremely unbalanced lineup, and terrible OF defense.  Seems problematic to me.

Starting Lineup:

  • 1B: Abreu
  • 2B: Gonzalez
  • SS: Anderson
  • 3B. Moncada
  • LF: Jimenez
  • CF: Robert
  • RF: Vaughn
  • CA: Grandal
  • DH: Sheets

Bench:

  • IF: Mendick
  • IF: Burger
  • OF: Engel
  • CA: Collins

Rotation:

  1. Giolito
  2. Lynn
  3. Cease
  4. Kopech
  5. Keuchel

Bullpen:

  • 9th: Hendriks
  • 8th: Bummer
  • 8th: Crochet
  • 7th: Ruiz
  • 7th: Burr
  • 6th: Foster
  • 6th: Cordero
  • LR: Lopez

Will Crochet definitely be in the pen next season or do you think they will be looking to move him into starting? And are you assuming they will not pick up on the option for Hernandez?

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16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Definitely agree with that.  I incorrectly assumed trading Madrigal meant the Sox would bump up the player high enough to easily replace him, but definitely concerned that won’t be the case.

It won't be the case. This FO is so stoopid that they can't even adequately manage the payroll effectively. Im convinced that if they had LAD's budget, they'd spend through THAT like crack whores needing a rock.

 

So, for all the Madrigal haters, him at what, $700k to give us ~1.8fWAR, vs Hernandez at $5MM to give us ~1.8fWAR is a big problem. Similarly, Heuer at $700k vs. Tepera at $5MM. $1.4MM vs $10MM for similar production adds up. And the cascade of events leads to desperation moves like re-signing Eaton, instead of having just a tiny bit more money for a REAL contributor.

15 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Yes, Thank you., I should have included them. I don’t think they have the will to make the moves to adequately fill these holes without going Top 10 / $180-$200m.

Their poor roster construction and players who cannot cover a position beyond DH/1B (Eloy, Sheets, Burger, Grandal, Abreu) limit what they can do without moving one of these players.

I agree that an abject lack of flexibility in this roster is a problem. And its also a reason why Leury simply can't be let go, just yet.

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