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Offseason Thread

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41 minutes ago, fathom said:

They just seemed slow in the postseason. They have a lot of good athletes, but my god only Cesar Hernandez seemed to get down the line quickly.  The injuries seemed to sap Robert, Timmy and Engel of any consistent burst.  I can think of one game over last few months where Timmy looked to have plus speed.

It's mind boggling how much speed we have that is unused on the basepaths. I understand Luis with his injury. Tim must have been injured/tired like you said. Apparently Yoan will never swipe bags. They don't want to risk injuries I suppose. 

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Yoan was Tucker...just two seasons ago.

Therein lies the problem, at some point, teams like the Twins/Indians (and White Sox, historically) typically decide that it's not worth paying $25 million for a 4ish fWAR player, despite any Balta-esque $$$/fWAR free agent acquisition cost calculators you throw out there.

That's why parting ways with both Madrigal and Vaughn would REALLY start to hamstring the team financially down the line...if you start replacing them with more expensive veteran guys, or more likely go cheap for the Eaton and Cesar Hernandez types.

Honestly, not even sure we can afford the likes of Starling Marte if we're going to offer a QO to Rodon (and he accepts it) as well as picking up Kimbrel's last year...and then we end up having a difficult time getting sufficient value back to justify a second Kimbrel do-over trade, then somehow end up carrying him on the active roster for another 3-4 months into 2022.

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22 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I'll reserve judgement until I see the Astros against the other teams in the playoffs. There is a reason some of the "experts" picked the Sox to win. There is a great deal of talent there.

They’ve made 5 straight ALCS. I’ve seen enough. 

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They've definitely passed the Royals and the Cubs on the rebuilding success meter...especially with a second WS title (were they to win THIS year).

I honestly don't think that they have enough starting pitching over a longer series with Verlander (and better Greinke), and the back 3-4 of their pen aren't the most intimidating in the world, but they've been effective enough.

And the Dodgers have had the same issues with Jansen on and off...especially in the postseason...over the last few seasons.   Seems like he'll get into a 7-10 day stretch where he really falls apart and then miraculously manages to right the ship somehow.

Edited by caulfield12

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1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Could be better? Lol. That’s putting it lightly. Great, he’s made the postseason a bunch of times but he was also benched by the Dodgers in the postseason. Kinda seems like the bat doesn’t play well enough in the postseason to overcome his defensive flaws.

He has a .127 BABIP in the post-season, which is less than half his career average, and is almost certainly the victim of bad luck.  If you’re going to hate, at least stick with his defense.

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16 minutes ago, Tony said:

They’ve made 5 straight ALCS. I’ve seen enough. 

so does that tell you that they are the only elite team in the league and the sox are in the group with the rest of the teams? Or if the Red Sox beat them does that tell you the Sox are even lower than that tier. The playoffs are so random that sometimes teams just get on a roll and steamroll everyone like the 2005 White Sox.

To be honest the fact that Houston has been so good makes me feel better about the sox losing to them.

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Or Peter Gammons is a voodoo/witch doctor/shaman bringing the karma gods down on Houston, but simultaneously sparing manager Cora.

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1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

He has a .127 BABIP in the post-season, which is less than half his career average, and is almost certainly the victim of bad luck.  If you’re going to hate, at least stick with his defense.

Great. How about his defense and pitch calling? He's fucking abysmal at all aspects of catching, aside from pitch framing. Where he's now.... average. He was a really good catcher at one point. He's become a liability, and he's only getting older. I think his bat is easily replaceable at DH, and I think you can get WAY more out of a catcher who is....actually a good catcher. You know, calls the right pitches, blocks pitches, has even an average arm... 

Houston basically trots out a pitcher in their lineup, because he's that valuable behind the plate... Offense is, IMO, the least important aspect of being a catcher.

Edited by Paulie4Pres
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16 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Or Peter Gammons is a voodoo/witch doctor/shaman bringing the karma gods down on Houston, but simultaneously sparing manager Cora.

I do believe we’ve determined that voodoo dolls do not work.

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Sox over the last decade have shown they can easily replace a .900 OPS player at DH, yes

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43 minutes ago, bmags said:

Sox over the last decade have shown they can easily replace a .900 OPS player at DH, yes

Yes, I'm sure the White Sox can count on Grandal putting up a .900 OPS next season.🙄

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2 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

Yes, I'm sure the White Sox can count on Grandal putting up a .900 OPS next season.🙄

There are few replacements that have a better chance than him, and would be cheaper.

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One guy who kind of escaped being blasted was Kopech. He really didn't pitch well for the last 3 months. He is the key

to next years team. 

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42 minutes ago, Texsox said:

If this is true, what a joke. Let the players pick a manager? How about getting the fans involved? 

https://fansided.com/2021/10/13/tony-la-russa-white-sox-return-2022/

 

I'm pretty sure LaRussa finished this quote with something like "as I always have done, that's how I operate" the other day and Sullivan just took the juicy part and let others make it into a story.

LaRussa said this after the game and the context sure sounded like he makes the judgment whether he has the team under his control or on his side or whatever, and that it's not a physical straw poll of the players. Sounds like posturing and that he'll be back next year unless someone in the clubhouse vocally stands up and says we don't want you here.

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50 minutes ago, Texsox said:

If this is true, what a joke. Let the players pick a manager? How about getting the fans involved? 

https://fansided.com/2021/10/13/tony-la-russa-white-sox-return-2022/

 

That’s kind of an impossible position to put the players in…

They vote?

Abreu, Anderson and Giolito decide?

We know how Leury and Lynn would vote, haha.

Do we have to listen to Keuchel’s opinion, still?

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4 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

I'm pretty sure LaRussa finished this quote with something like "as I always have done, that's how I operate" the other day and Sullivan just took the juicy part and let others make it into a story.

LaRussa said this after the game and the context sure sounded like he makes the judgment whether he has the team under his control or on his side or whatever, and that it's not a physical straw poll of the players. Sounds like posturing and that he'll be back next year unless someone in the clubhouse vocally stands up and says we don't want you here.

Yeah, you’re probably right.  Don’t want to get excited and then end up disappointed when it was more or less a PR ruse for the offseason to sell more season tickets with promises that the front office and players have never been so on the same page before.

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23 minutes ago, zisk said:

One guy who kind of escaped being blasted was Kopech. He really didn't pitch well for the last 3 months. He is the key

to next years team. 

He wasn’t dominant but their usage of him made no sense either. After he got hurt, they called him up without a rehab stint at AAA, then buried him in the bullpen pitching an inning every 3 or 4 days until September. He therefore completely missed goals for how many innings he was supposed to get and also never got back into a groove post injury. How is a guy supposed to build his arm back up or get back into a pitching routine with that usage pattern? How on Earth do you bring a guy in his second year back to the big leagues without some in game work in Charlotte?

It should come as zero surprise that his performance was notably better in September when they started giving him longer outings.

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36 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

He wasn’t dominant but their usage of him made no sense either. After he got hurt, they called him up without a rehab stint at AAA, then buried him in the bullpen pitching an inning every 3 or 4 days until September. He therefore completely missed goals for how many innings he was supposed to get and also never got back into a groove post injury. How is a guy supposed to build his arm back up or get back into a pitching routine with that usage pattern? How on Earth do you bring a guy in his second year back to the big leagues without some in game work in Charlotte?

It should come as zero surprise that his performance was notably better in September when they started giving him longer outings.

This I agree with to an extent. I think the injury was worse than they reported. He really wasn't the same after. Without knowing more about it, it's hard to tell but there definitely was something different.

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

He wasn’t dominant but their usage of him made no sense either. After he got hurt, they called him up without a rehab stint at AAA, then buried him in the bullpen pitching an inning every 3 or 4 days until September. He therefore completely missed goals for how many innings he was supposed to get and also never got back into a groove post injury. How is a guy supposed to build his arm back up or get back into a pitching routine with that usage pattern? How on Earth do you bring a guy in his second year back to the big leagues without some in game work in Charlotte?

It should come as zero surprise that his performance was notably better in September when they started giving him longer outings.

I think the problem was that the sox made Kopech a 2 pitch pitcher as a reliever despite having 4 good pitches. He basically just through fastball/slider. Hitters learned they were going to see at least 1 fastball every at bat an usually more. Therefore, the just sat on fastballs and didn't even swing at sliders. He also may have been tipping his pitches.

Next year, as a starter, he will be throwing curveballs and change-ups as well.

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

He wasn’t dominant but their usage of him made no sense either. After he got hurt, they called him up without a rehab stint at AAA, then buried him in the bullpen pitching an inning every 3 or 4 days until September. He therefore completely missed goals for how many innings he was supposed to get and also never got back into a groove post injury. How is a guy supposed to build his arm back up or get back into a pitching routine with that usage pattern? How on Earth do you bring a guy in his second year back to the big leagues without some in game work in Charlotte?

It should come as zero surprise that his performance was notably better in September when they started giving him longer outings.

They never said what his innings target was. I think they managed him his workload well, he had no base and they were conservative. However, next season they need to solely commit to him starting, developing 3-4 pitches and being ready to start games in late June or July, perhaps a 2-3 inning start and work his way to 120-140 innings including playoffs.

His usage the past week was ridiculous, and Tony should apologize to both Michael and the fans for pitching him in Game 4.

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

If this is true, what a joke. Let the players pick a manager? How about getting the fans involved? 

https://fansided.com/2021/10/13/tony-la-russa-white-sox-return-2022/

 

1 hour ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

I'm pretty sure LaRussa finished this quote with something like "as I always have done, that's how I operate" the other day and Sullivan just took the juicy part and let others make it into a story.

LaRussa said this after the game and the context sure sounded like he makes the judgment whether he has the team under his control or on his side or whatever, and that it's not a physical straw poll of the players. Sounds like posturing and that he'll be back next year unless someone in the clubhouse vocally stands up and says we don't want you here.

This is exactly how it went down in the post game press conference. He prefaced it by saying "after I became stablished", i.e. sometime in Oakland.

Wonder if players can trust Hahn or others in the organization to keep their thoughts on La Russa confidential. With a manager controlling your life's income via playing time, especially younger players, it's best to keep your mouth shut than risk everything. This organization has had a shady record over the years, especially when it comes to leaks, management clubhouse informants/plants, etc..

Abreu and other select veterans do whatever the hell they want, play when they want, demand they play even if it's smart to sit them for health or rest, etc.  However, if veterans serious about doing what it takes to win a championship, and a ballot was confidential, the results may not be in Tony's favor.

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Ah the off-season, where Larussa becomes the omnipotent dictator 

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9 hours ago, ptatc said:

so does that tell you that they are the only elite team in the league and the sox are in the group with the rest of the teams? Or if the Red Sox beat them does that tell you the Sox are even lower than that tier. The playoffs are so random that sometimes teams just get on a roll and steamroll everyone like the 2005 White Sox.

To be honest the fact that Houston has been so good makes me feel better about the sox losing to them.

It tells me 3 things. 
 

1. The Astros are still the kings of the AL

2. They’ve made 5 straight ALCS. The playoffs aren’t as “random” as some are making them out to be 

3. I don’t feel great about losing to anyone. I want the Sox to reach that Houston level. This series showed me they aren’t there yet. The Sox aren’t on the Houston “tier” in terms of quality. 

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30 minutes ago, Tony said:

It tells me 3 things. 
 

1. The Astros are still the kings of the AL

2. They’ve made 5 straight ALCS. The playoffs aren’t as “random” as some are making them out to be 

3. I don’t feel great about losing to anyone. I want the Sox to reach that Houston level. This series showed me they aren’t there yet. The Sox aren’t on the Houston “tier” in terms of quality. 

The playoffs are still random in general. There are always some teams that go on extended runs. The Braves did something like 14 straight in the good years, the Yankees did too at times. But they also did not win the World Series in years where they were the best team. 

You don't need to feel great about losing to anyone but when you lose to the best team it tells you that the team may not be as far away as you think.

The Sox aren't on tier with Houston but neither was Houston during their first couple of competitive years after the rebuild. The sox team will grow with maturity and experience. 

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29 minutes ago, Tony said:

It tells me 3 things. 
 

1. The Astros are still the kings of the AL

2. They’ve made 5 straight ALCS. The playoffs aren’t as “random” as some are making them out to be 

3. I don’t feel great about losing to anyone. I want the Sox to reach that Houston level. This series showed me they aren’t there yet. The Sox aren’t on the Houston “tier” in terms of quality. 

Despite the Sox having a lot of talent, the Astros are the better team right now.  Even looking at just talent, there are fewer holes on Houston's team.  But the bigger issue is execution.  The Sox did not play well, and there were some management miscues.  The majority of the fault lies with the players, though.  You're not going to win a series against a very good team by hitting mostly singles, hitting into a bunch of ground ball outs and DPs, and having all of your starters exit the game early.

I still don't like the approach down the stretch, taking it easy, playing subpar baseball.  That mentality carried over into the playoffs, even though we were told that wouldn't happen.  But that's on the players, too to an extent.  These are professionals who for the most part didn't do their jobs well when it really counted.

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