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Just now, southsider2k5 said:

He gets hurt, and you want to pitch him more.  Makes sense.

He had tommy john surgery as did many starting pitchers. We do not know if Kopech gets hurt a lot.

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3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

And now because they got embarrassed by following the strategy you were endorsing, you’re left with trying to ridicule hypocriticals that are somehow worse than what we just watched.

Kopech got hurt going by your method of ramping him up early.

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6 minutes ago, kleedawg said:

How much do you think those 3 players will cost?

A lot, I was commenting on the idea of signing those players, and how it's not based in any kind of reality. 

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1 minute ago, Tony said:

A lot, I was commenting on the idea of signing those players, and how it's not based in any kind of reality. 

Ah, then that comment was for the guy I was quoting an not me.

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3 minutes ago, Tony said:

A lot, I was commenting on the idea of signing those players, and how it's not based in any kind of reality

What's an offseason without an unhealthy dose of imagination.  It's what keeps me checking in here November-March.

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47 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

To all of those who want to write off Vaughn after a bad last 22 games (because that's what it was - he had a .797 OPS as of August 19th) - Do you remember Moncada and Anderson took several hundred at bats to round into major league caliber hitters? Andrew Vaughn was amazing in 2021 all things considered. He was asked to play defense at three positions he'd never played and handled the bat just fine for a rookie without any minor league experience. He will be great in a couple years.

Let's put it this way. I think Vaughn showed serious signs, particularly against right handers, during that stretch in June through August, and then he clearly hit a wall in August and September. I would fully expect him to come back a much stronger hitter next year, probably so good you can't ever take him out of the lineup. Furthermore, much to my surprise he was not terrible in LF, and was able to stay healthy most of the year despite all the position shifts.

However, the White Sox have a gigantic logjam. Burger, Sheets, Abreu, Jimenez, and Vaughn all should be in LF, RF, or DHing. None of them are good defenders, they are adequate at best and hurt the team defense when they're out there. Only one of them is Left Handed, and this lineup needs LH help. One of them will simply not be moved, for many reasons. Jimenez, Burger, and Sheets all are guys who could be moved, but none of them is likely to bring a solid return back - Eloy has underperformed, Burger has an injury history, and both Burger and Sheets are the sort of "good but not great" guys that are moved for filler pieces.

The White Sox have to do something about this logjam, and out of all of them, Andrew Vaughn clearly has the most value. He is the one who could potentially be moved for something close to his worth, and if Burger and Sheets are able to be "not as good as Vaughn but ok" next year, then the White Sox overall would be better with the player/pitcher returned for Vaughn and Burger and Sheets covering the DH spot and part time IF/RF than they would be with any other option.

I don't know that the right deal will come around, I would value him very highly based on his performance this year. But I would not reject it out of hand.

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Let's put it this way. I think Vaughn showed serious signs, particularly against right handers, during that stretch in June through August, and then he clearly hit a wall in August and September. I would fully expect him to come back a much stronger hitter next year, probably so good you can't ever take him out of the lineup. Furthermore, much to my surprise he was not terrible in LF, and was able to stay healthy most of the year despite all the position shifts.

However, the White Sox have a gigantic logjam. Burger, Sheets, Abreu, Jimenez, and Vaughn all should be in LF, RF, or DHing. None of them are good defenders, they are adequate at best and hurt the team defense when they're out there. Only one of them is Left Handed, and this lineup needs LH help. One of them will simply not be moved, for many reasons. Jimenez, Burger, and Sheets all are guys who could be moved, but none of them is likely to bring a solid return back - Eloy has underperformed, Burger has an injury history, and both Burger and Sheets are the sort of "good but not great" guys that are moved for filler pieces.

The White Sox have to do something about this logjam, and out of all of them, Andrew Vaughn clearly has the most value. He is the one who could potentially be moved for something close to his worth, and if Burger and Sheets are able to be "not as good as Vaughn but ok" next year, then the White Sox overall would be better with the player/pitcher returned for Vaughn and Burger and Sheets covering the DH spot and part time IF/RF than they would be with any other option.

I don't know that the right deal will come around, I would value him very highly based on his performance this year. But I would not reject it out of hand.

I still think Eloy has the most value and the jury is way out on him. Similar to your assessment of Vaughn, I think he hit a wall after coming back from the injury. I just think there was a giant hangover effect, and despite Eloy's abysmal end of the year, he's still a 3+ WAR player per season already, despite awful defense. He is still averaging close to 40 homers per 162 and that's insanely valuable to a team that doesn't hit homers. Again, as we saw with Moncada and Anderson, it's dangerous to conclude definitive value after less than 2 full seasons of plate appearances. Eloy has about 1.5 seasons total of plate appearances so far.

 

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5 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I still think Eloy has the most value and the jury is way out on him. Similar to your assessment of Vaughn, I think he hit a wall after coming back from the injury. I just think there was a giant hangover effect, and despite Eloy's abysmal end of the year, he's still a 3+ WAR player per season already, despite awful defense. He is still averaging close to 40 homers per 162 and that's insanely valuable to a team that doesn't hit homers. Again, as we saw with Moncada and Anderson, it's dangerous to conclude definitive value after less than 2 full seasons of plate appearances. Eloy has about 1.5 seasons total of plate appearances so far.

 

But there's 2 big differences with Eloy. First, unlike Vaughn, Eloy clearly can have the "Injury prone" tag, which like it or not does affect his value in a trade. Second, Eloy is due at least $30 million the next 3 years. The option years are nice at the end, but they're expensive option years if he's mostly a DH by then. 

If I were talking to the White Sox about him, I would not be putting very much on the table in terms of talent coming back. He's not worthless, but he's not a guy you're getting my top pitching prospect for unless my system stinks. I will take him, I will give you something back that has some value, but I'm not giving up very much to take on the risk with this player.

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25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Let's put it this way. I think Vaughn showed serious signs, particularly against right handers, during that stretch in June through August, and then he clearly hit a wall in August and September. I would fully expect him to come back a much stronger hitter next year, probably so good you can't ever take him out of the lineup. Furthermore, much to my surprise he was not terrible in LF, and was able to stay healthy most of the year despite all the position shifts.

However, the White Sox have a gigantic logjam. Burger, Sheets, Abreu, Jimenez, and Vaughn all should be in LF, RF, or DHing. None of them are good defenders, they are adequate at best and hurt the team defense when they're out there. Only one of them is Left Handed, and this lineup needs LH help. One of them will simply not be moved, for many reasons. Jimenez, Burger, and Sheets all are guys who could be moved, but none of them is likely to bring a solid return back - Eloy has underperformed, Burger has an injury history, and both Burger and Sheets are the sort of "good but not great" guys that are moved for filler pieces.

The White Sox have to do something about this logjam, and out of all of them, Andrew Vaughn clearly has the most value. He is the one who could potentially be moved for something close to his worth, and if Burger and Sheets are able to be "not as good as Vaughn but ok" next year, then the White Sox overall would be better with the player/pitcher returned for Vaughn and Burger and Sheets covering the DH spot and part time IF/RF than they would be with any other option.

I don't know that the right deal will come around, I would value him very highly based on his performance this year. But I would not reject it out of hand.

None of them can play 1B? Burger can't even play 3B? Wow, tough crowd. 

Edited by ron883

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27 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Let's put it this way. I think Vaughn showed serious signs, particularly against right handers, during that stretch in June through August, and then he clearly hit a wall in August and September. I would fully expect him to come back a much stronger hitter next year, probably so good you can't ever take him out of the lineup. Furthermore, much to my surprise he was not terrible in LF, and was able to stay healthy most of the year despite all the position shifts.

However, the White Sox have a gigantic logjam. Burger, Sheets, Abreu, Jimenez, and Vaughn all should be in LF, RF, or DHing. None of them are good defenders, they are adequate at best and hurt the team defense when they're out there. Only one of them is Left Handed, and this lineup needs LH help. One of them will simply not be moved, for many reasons. Jimenez, Burger, and Sheets all are guys who could be moved, but none of them is likely to bring a solid return back - Eloy has underperformed, Burger has an injury history, and both Burger and Sheets are the sort of "good but not great" guys that are moved for filler pieces.

The White Sox have to do something about this logjam, and out of all of them, Andrew Vaughn clearly has the most value. He is the one who could potentially be moved for something close to his worth, and if Burger and Sheets are able to be "not as good as Vaughn but ok" next year, then the White Sox overall would be better with the player/pitcher returned for Vaughn and Burger and Sheets covering the DH spot and part time IF/RF than they would be with any other option.

I don't know that the right deal will come around, I would value him very highly based on his performance this year. But I would not reject it out of hand.

None of those guys except Abreu would bring back much in a trade thus they'll all be staying IMO. Sheets and Vaughn look like nice prospects. Trade Burger if you must but he won't bring much. I think the Sox should trade Grandal. Let Collins catch along with a defensive whiz who can't hit that you can acquire. Sox need a new second baseman (Madrigal type would be perfect there, damn), a new catcher, a solution in right field (Vaughn or Sheets?) and lots of pitching help.

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7 minutes ago, ron883 said:

None of them can play 1B? Wow, tough crowd. 

Right!? Abreu is more than suitable to play 1B.  IDGAF about Jake Burger.  I am not penciling him into anything.  He's purely injury insurance with 2 more option years.  I am not trading anyone to make room for Jake Burger, or expecting Burger to fill the roles of any other guys mentioned.  I was pretty much on the same board with Sheets when they sent him down, but he sure looked the part the 2nd half and we need LHH...bad.  But I sure as shit am not trading Eloy or Vaughn and expecting Sheets to fill those shows over the next half decade.  Abreu is a FA after 22.  Sure, the org worships the guy and he probably comes back if he doesn't completely fall off a cliff in 22, but he's only under contract 1 more season and that solves alot of log jam issues down the road.  Vaughn proved to be plenty capable of playing LF everyday and RF occasionally.  

In 22:

LF/DH/1B: Eloy, Vaughn and Abreu

RF: FA

Sheets fills in at all those positions as bench piece, and fills in for IL stints.  

Again, situation clears slightly after 22 with Abreu (potentially) leaving for FA. 

Edited by ChiSox59

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Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Right!? Abreu is more than suitable to play 1B.  IDGAF about Jake Burger.  I am not penciling him into anything.  He's purely injury insurance with 2 more option years.  I am not trading anyone to make room for Jake Burger, or expecting Burger to fill the roles of any other guys mentioned.  I was pretty much on the same board with Sheets when they sent him down, but he sure looked the part the 2nd half and we need LHH...bad.  But I sure as shit am not trading Eloy or Vaughn and expecting Sheets to fill those shows over the next half decade.  Abreu is a FA after 22.  Sure, the org worships the guy and he probably comes back if he doesn't completely fall off a cliff in 22, but he's only under contract 1 more season and that solves alot of log jam issues down the road.  Vaughn proved to be plenty capable of playing LF everyday and RF occasionally.  

So what's the answer, is opening day next year Eloy, Robert, Vaughn around the OF, Sheets at DH, and Abreu at 1b? Roll it back again?

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56 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

So they pitched him with greater frequency because they were worried about stressing the hamstring? Huh?

If anything spreading his appearances out would be beneficial for the muscle.

Greater frequency with less time and stress per outing. Tissue heals better with lower loads with greater frequency ie, people go to PT 3x/week with low loads.

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3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So what's the answer, is opening day next year Eloy, Robert, Vaughn around the OF, Sheets at DH, and Abreu at 1b? Roll it back again?

That seems to be what most people want. Then when our pitchers' ERA all go up 25% next year due to all the outfield balls not being caught, they'll blame Katz.

Even better: sign Schwarber to play RF, move Vaughn to 3B and Moncada to 2B. We can lose games 11-10.

Edited by CentralChamps21

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3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So what's the answer, is opening day next year Eloy, Robert, Vaughn around the OF, Sheets at DH, and Abreu at 1b? Roll it back again?

Vaughn LF. Eloy DH. Abreu 1B.  I am signing a lefty RF that ideally is at least an average defender (Conforto is the guy, ideally).  Sheets is on bench or in AAA.  He'll get plenty of ABs throughout the year. He also has 2 options years remaining.  I am not subtracting from the core for Gavin Sheets. 

Edited by ChiSox59

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2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Totally concur on Lynn, have been posting since his chronic knee issues ended his dominance the past two months of the season.

In terms of fielding, infield guy Joe McEwing and outfield guy Daryl Boston have been here close to a decade. Outside of Daryl's work with Vaughn, there is not much evidence any fundamentals were covered this season. The same defensive crap that people bitched about when Ricky was here has not changed whatsoever. They haven't done much of anything under three managers, and it's hard to imagine something changing now.

Jerry sprung for two additional coaches for Tony, because clearly he could use as much help as possible. One was used on their catcher "guru" Jerry Narron. If anything, the catchers collectively took a step back this season. I don't see anything happening on the #2 front, unless Tony leaves or they make changes the Sox or Tony seldom if ever make.

Anybody thinking Lance Lynn is going to start taking physical fitness seriously in his age 35 season after signing the final contract of his career is fucking nuts. 

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2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Right!? Abreu is more than suitable to play 1B.  IDGAF about Jake Burger.  I am not penciling him into anything.  He's purely injury insurance with 2 more option years.  I am not trading anyone to make room for Jake Burger, or expecting Burger to fill the roles of any other guys mentioned.  I was pretty much on the same board with Sheets when they sent him down, but he sure looked the part the 2nd half and we need LHH...bad.  But I sure as shit am not trading Eloy or Vaughn and expecting Sheets to fill those shows over the next half decade.  Abreu is a FA after 22.  Sure, the org worships the guy and he probably comes back if he doesn't completely fall off a cliff in 22, but he's only under contract 1 more season and that solves alot of log jam issues down the road.  Vaughn proved to be plenty capable of playing LF everyday and RF occasionally.  

I concur with this and would add the following:

Abreu should win the gg this year.

I would trade burger in a package with Keuchel to a rebuild team for a reliever and/or defensive/strong throwing catcher to pair with Grandal. Burger is blocked here, someone will take dallas (prolly some salary being eating) to get burger. Dallas will eat innings and mentor the staff. If he does well early in the season (like he did with us) they trade him in may for more prospects.

Sheetes/engel rf platoon next year with engel giving Roberts an occasional day off and being alate inning replacement for sheets/eloy.

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1 hour ago, turnin' two said:

Ignoring everything else here, do you really believe that these two are remotely close?

Yes. Rodon might come cheaper due to injury issues. Main point is to shore up staff

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12 minutes ago, kleedawg said:

I concur with this and would add the following:

Abreu should win the gg this year.

I would trade burger in a package with Keuchel to a rebuild team for a reliever and/or defensive/strong throwing catcher to pair with Grandal. Burger is blocked here, someone will take dallas (prolly some salary being eating) to get burger. Dallas will eat innings and mentor the staff. If he does well early in the season (like he did with us) they trade him in may for more prospects.

Sheetes/engel rf platoon next year with engel giving Roberts an occasional day off and being alate inning replacement for sheets/eloy.

Hard pass on that from me.  Sox need to sign a legitimate OF that hits from the left side and is at least a decent defender.  Sheets is nothing more than an emergency OF.  

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2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Hard pass on that from me.  Sox need to sign a legitimate OF that hits from the left side and is at least a decent defender.  Sheets is nothing more than an emergency OF.  

How do we know this, he has only been playing Of for a few months? Likewise, we don't know what his hitting ceiling is? Look at the FA left handed hitters for next year...pretty bleak. Plus in a platoon he will be limited how much he is playing rf. That will also be divided by appearances at 1b and dH. And he won't be out there in late innings of close games.

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5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Hard pass on that from me.  Sox need to sign a legitimate OF that hits from the left side and is at least a decent defender.  Sheets is nothing more than an emergency OF.  

I agree. I think they should focus on a high OBP, good fielder type. They have plenty of power from others. Someone to hit at the bottom of the order and get back to anderson.

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19 minutes ago, kleedawg said:

How do we know this, he has only been playing Of for a few months? Likewise, we don't know what his hitting ceiling is? Look at the FA left handed hitters for next year...pretty bleak. Plus in a platoon he will be limited how much he is playing rf. That will also be divided by appearances at 1b and dH. And he won't be out there in late innings of close games.

Because I have eyes.  He looked terrible in RF.  There is a reason he was hardly used there.  Unfortunately, he also looked terrible at 1B.  When you have a LF that should be Vaughn but most likely will be Eloy, but in either event, you can't put Sheets in RF is the majority of the time.  This isn't MLB the Show. 

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soxtalk offseason plans: cut off the nose to spite the face

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