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Sox to pick up $16M Kimbrel option, per Nightengale. Then try to trade him.

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2 minutes ago, bmags said:

How would you know that.

My mistake and good news... I misread the story...The Sox are expected to pick up the option.  I thought all this time they had already done so.

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39 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

News flash....they already picked-up the option.  

 

33 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

My mistake and good news... I misread the story...The Sox are expected to pick up the option.  I thought all this time they had already done so.

Insider alert! Lol

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4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The bad two years you were referring to were 35 total innings, of which the final 15 innings he was actually really good.  He also didn’t have a pre-season in 2019 and dealt with COVID insanity in 2020.  The dude literally had a xwOBA in the 100th percentile over the first four months of this year and was perhaps the most valued commodity at the trade deadline.  His addition didn’t work out for us but that doesn’t mean you overreact and dump him for nothing.  Again, Hahn will know if a market exists before he has to pick up the option.

xwOBA means nothing to me, I go by the eye test and he sucked as a White Sox.  Did they use him incorrectly as a set-up man, maybe you could say that was the reason he sucked.  If he's that fragile that you can't come in and pitch a clean 8th inning when used that way instead of the 9th as a closer you've lost me.  

Edited by A-Train to 35th
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10 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

xwOBA means nothing to me, I go by the eye test and he sucked as a White Sox.  Did they use him incorrectly as a set-up man, maybe you could say that was the reason he sucked.  If he's that fragile that you can't come in and pitch a clean 8th inning when used that way instead of the 9th as a closer you've lost me.  

Did you watch him with the Cubs?  What did the eye test say then?

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10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Did you watch him with the Cubs?  What did the eye test say then?

You should know by now that "eye test" is internet speak for "confirmation bias". 

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22 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Did you watch him with the Cubs?  What did the eye test say then?

As dominant as anyone in baseball. What happened?

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3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Did you watch him with the Cubs?  What did the eye test say then?

I really didn't watch the Cubs that much, although much like Cody Heuer it's much easier to pitch when your team isn't expected to win.  In high leverage situations for the White Sox this year Cody didn't do as well as the previous season when the expectations weren't as high as they were this year.  Especially after someone from the bullpen I can't remember who made some asinine statement about not giving up an earned run, or something equally as insane.  Those  expectations were there for Kimbrel when he came to the Sox who were in first place.  He hadn't even pitched for the Sox when they came out with that  "Pony Tail Gang"  and all the declarations by local and national media that the Sox bullpen was the best in baseball. That's a lot of pressure that I believe Kimbrel couldn't handle in his new position as a set-up man.  The few games he did close he didn't do much better so I'm not buying that excuse that he would have been better as a closer.   My eyes told me the Sox were NOT the best bullpen in baseball and KImbrels failure certainly didn't do much to change my opinion.  

Let's get one thing clear I loved the Kimbrel signing and thought it was going to put us over the top. As much as I liked Nick and Cody I thought the move was the one that was going to at least make it to the ACLS with the WS a definite possibility.  I was wrong we should have traded for Marte, Tepera, and another set-up man.

Edited by A-Train to 35th

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This is totally going to backfire when they get stuck with Kimbrel. Just cut your losses and move on. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

You should know by now that "eye test" is internet speak for "confirmation bias". 

Wrong, is all I'll say because you seem to enjoy disagreeing with just about everyone even when you say the same thing or don't bother reading what's written.

Read my post I thought the Kimbrel trade would put us over the top, but you tend to ignore that part.

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3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

You should know by now that "eye test" is internet speak for "confirmation bias". 

The eye test for me is attending over 20 games and watching over 100 games on TV.

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26 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

I really didn't watch the Cubs that much, although much like Cody Heuer it's much easier to pitch when your team isn't expected to win.  In high leverage situations for the White Sox this year Cody didn't do as well as the previous season when the expectations weren't as high as they were this year.  Especially after someone from the bullpen I can't remember who made some asinine statement about not giving up an earned run, or something equally as insane.  Those  expectations were there for Kimbrel when he came to the Sox who were in first place.  He hadn't even pitched for the Sox when they came out with that  "Pony Tail Gang"  and all the declarations by local and national media that the Sox bullpen was the best in baseball. That's a lot of pressure that I believe Kimbrel couldn't handle in his new position as a set-up man.  The few games he did close he didn't do much better so I'm not buying that excuse that he would have been better as a closer.   My eyes told me the Sox were NOT the best bullpen in baseball and KImbrels failure certainly didn't do much to change my opinion.  

Let's get one thing clear I loved the Kimbrel signing and thought it was going to put us over the top. As much as I liked Nick and Cody I thought the move was the one that was going to at least make it to the ACLS with the WS a definite possibility.  I was wrong we should have traded for Marte, Tepera, and another set-up man.

And Escobar. The supposed medical isdues. that might have been a negotiating tactic that backfired when the trade wasn't consummated.

 

Just like you could have looked at James Shields' starts in April of 2016 compared to the weeks before the trade...eye test is just as good as statistics, the ball just wasn't coming out of his hand the same way.

Heck, we could apply that to Lynn and Rodon as well the last six weeks, throwing out the entire season's body of work.  One could argue the race was wrapped up, they were just going through the motions, but that obviously wasn't the real issue, it was physical.  Giolito it's always noticeable if his stuff is crisp or flat.

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Speaking of eye tests, everyone can see Cease has great stuff...BUT, based on the often repeated fWAR numbers and 4th in the AL or majors ranking, does anyone think he could CURRENTLY fetch the same return Corbin Burnes was generating (Madrigal, Vaughn, Heuer, etc.) during that offseason?  Would he even get back anything close to Jimenez and the younger version of himself?  The psychological side of the game.. controlling emotions, loss of command, sometimes those pitchers just don't quite come around and have career trajectories more like Javy Vasquez if they're fortunate.

Edited by caulfield12

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24 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

The eye test for me is attending over 20 games and watching over 100 games on TV.

Statistics attend every pitch.

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Just now, southsider2k5 said:

Statistics attend every pitch.

And based on that, we should have had the best bullpen in baseball based on pure stuff/physics/spin rate.  There are lots of other factors beyond infield shift rate to explain all those failures dating back to the very first series in Anaheim.  We also had the most expensive pen in baseball the final two months of the season.

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32 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

And Escobar. The supposed medical isdues. that might have been a negotiating tactic that backfired when the trade wasn't consummated.

 

Just like you could have looked at James Shields' starts in April of 2016 compared to the weeks before the trade...eye test is just as good as statistics, the ball just wasn't coming out of his hand the same way.

Heck, we could apply that to Lynn and Rodon as well the last six weeks, throwing out the entire season's body of work.  One could argue the race was wrapped up, they were just going through the motions, but that obviously wasn't the real issue, it was physical.  Giolito it's always noticeable if his stuff is crisp or flat.

I did look at Shields starts the week before the trade because he was unfortunately on my fantasy team.  I believe he gave up 10 runs in his start before the trade in a couple of innings.  When the trade was made although I knew nothing of Tatis or Eric Johnson I knew based on what Shields had done to my fantasy team that I didn't want him on the Sox.

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31 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Statistics attend every pitch.

Correct, but  statistics don't tell the whole story behind every pitch.

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34 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

And based on that, we should have had the best bullpen in baseball based on pure stuff/physics/spin rate.  There are lots of other factors beyond infield shift rate to explain all those failures dating back to the very first series in Anaheim.  We also had the most expensive pen in baseball the final two months of the season.

 Chicago Suntimes: Heading into the season, the White Sox’ bullpen was projected to be one of the team’s strengths. With the addition of closer Liam Hendriks, this was a vaunted group expected to secure a lot of wins. In April, the Sox’ bullpen had a 4.50 ERA. Its seven blown saves were tied for the most in the majors.

That series in Anaheim was alarming.  7 blown saves in the month of April, think about that when wondering why we didn't secure home field advantage over the Astros

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19 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

Correct, but  statistics don't tell the whole story behind every pitch.

And the eye test does?  Lol.

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35 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And the eye test does?  Lol.

There are many examples for instance a dropped third strike.  Not saying stats lie, but they are not the whole story.  You watch the games there are more examples, just listen to Stoney and watch with your eyes instead of burying your nose in statistics.

LOL really, grow up it's a discussion about seeing versus reading.

Edited by A-Train to 35th
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On 10/22/2021 at 8:32 PM, A-Train to 35th said:

I really didn't watch the Cubs that much, although much like Cody Heuer it's much easier to pitch when your team isn't expected to win.  In high leverage situations for the White Sox this year Cody didn't do as well as the previous season when the expectations weren't as high as they were this year.  Especially after someone from the bullpen I can't remember who made some asinine statement about not giving up an earned run, or something equally as insane.  Those  expectations were there for Kimbrel when he came to the Sox who were in first place.  He hadn't even pitched for the Sox when they came out with that  "Pony Tail Gang"  and all the declarations by local and national media that the Sox bullpen was the best in baseball. That's a lot of pressure that I believe Kimbrel couldn't handle in his new position as a set-up man.  The few games he did close he didn't do much better so I'm not buying that excuse that he would have been better as a closer.   My eyes told me the Sox were NOT the best bullpen in baseball and KImbrels failure certainly didn't do much to change my opinion.  

Let's get one thing clear I loved the Kimbrel signing and thought it was going to put us over the top. As much as I liked Nick and Cody I thought the move was the one that was going to at least make it to the ACLS with the WS a definite possibility.  I was wrong we should have traded for Marte, Tepera, and another set-up man.

FWIW the Cubs were 42-33 on June 24 and were in first place in the NLC. Kimbrel had a save in 20 of those games and had a 0.59 ERA. 

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2 hours ago, FriendlyNorthsider said:

FWIW the Cubs were 42-33 on June 24 and were in first place in the NLC. Kimbrel had a save in 20 of those games and had a 0.59 ERA. 

True, and he was a stud which is why I thought it was a great move when the Sox signed him, I'm just insinuating that something changed and I don't buy the reason for his decline was because he was used as a set-up man instead of a closer. The pressure in April-May-June is different than going to a team that the media claimed now had the best bullpen in baseball and instantly made them a World Series contender.   How would you explain Cody Heur suddenly being able to locate the plate and close out games immediately after joining the Cubs?

Edited by A-Train to 35th
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2 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

True, and he was a stud which is why I thought it was a great move when the Sox signed him, I'm just insinuating that something changed and I don't buy the reason for his decline was because he was used as a set-up man instead of a closer. The pressure in April-May-June is different than going to a team that the media claimed now had the best bullpen in baseball and instantly made them a World Series contender.   How would you explain Cody Heur suddenly being able to locate the plate and close out games immediately after joining the Cubs?

Considering his walk rate almost doubled with the Cubs, his strikeout rate fell by about half, and his BABIP against went from .367 with the Sox to .225 with the Cubs, I am going to note that your assumption was wrong that he was able to "locate the plate".  His FIP with the Cubs was actually 3/4 of a run higher with them vs the Sox, and note that he was incredibly lucky with the Cubs, and incredibly UNlucky with the Sox.  I will also note that he had two saves in 25 appearances, so he wasn't exactly "closing out games" either.

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36 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Considering his walk rate almost doubled with the Cubs, his strikeout rate fell by about half, and his BABIP against went from .367 with the Sox to .225 with the Cubs, I am going to note that your assumption was wrong that he was able to "locate the plate".  His FIP with the Cubs was actually 3/4 of a run higher with them vs the Sox, and note that he was incredibly lucky with the Cubs, and incredibly UNlucky with the Cubs.  I will also note that he had two saves in 25 appearances, so he wasn't exactly "closing out games" either.

Thanks for the stats on Cody, as I said previously I didn't watch the Cubs much and don't pour over statistics.  Based on your report I was wrong about Cody (I was going by what I saw the few times I switched channels), but the point of my comments were really regarding Kraig Kimbrel and I was wrong about the Cody comparison question I asked.

 

Edited by A-Train to 35th

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2 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

True, and he was a stud which is why I thought it was a great move when the Sox signed him, I'm just insinuating that something changed and I don't buy the reason for his decline was because he was used as a set-up man instead of a closer. The pressure in April-May-June is different than going to a team that the media claimed now had the best bullpen in baseball and instantly made them a World Series contender.   How would you explain Cody Heur suddenly being able to locate the plate and close out games immediately after joining the Cubs?

The pressure is different going to a team with a 10+ game lead in a division without a legit threat?

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