Rick Hahn 2021 End of Season Press Conference

[raBBit]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Or have guys 9 and 10 capable of stepping in?

You mean the Rays, who featured in Kevin Padlo in a key role in 2021 (by your definition), has more than 9-10 guys capable of stepping in?

[joejoesox]

I would have a lot more respect for Hahn if he told JR "GFY" and went elsewhere

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Or have guys 9 and 10 capable of stepping in?

They clearly didn't as they were in the same boat as the White Sox, an ALDS loss. Idiots. Kind of makes me think of the New England Patriots. A lot of people considered them perhaps the most well run organization in professional sports. But that was pure BS. Remember when Brady hurt his knee on opening weekend many years ago? They had no HOF QB waiting in the wings like a smart team would, and wound up missing the playoffs.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, raBBit said:

How many times had Engel, Robert, Lopez and Keuchel been on the IL in their MLB careers prior to 2021?

How many teams needed less starters than the White Sox in 2021?

How many games have you actually watched?

How many IL trips had the Sox 4th outfielder (Adam Engel) and 5th outfielder (Leury Garcia) had coming into 2021?

Robert? 2 moderate injuries with a good amount of time missed in 2018, so banged up in 1 of his 2.5 pro seasons coming into this year. A lower injury risk than Eloy but obviously not zero.

Leury? Hurt ALL THE TIME. 60 day IL stint in 2020. 3 IL stints in 2018 with leg injuries.  2 IL stints in 2017 with hand injuries. Multiple minor league IL stints in 2016. Did you not watch any games those years? 

Dallas Keuchel, 2 months on the IL in 2017 with a neck injury, notable back issues in the short 2020 season leading to him being pulled early from a game but with no IL stint, and back injuries always linger.

[raBBit]

8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They clearly didn't as they were in the same boat as the White Sox, an ALDS loss. Idiots. Kind of makes me think of the New England Patriots. A lot of people considered them perhaps the most well run organization in professional sports. But that was pure BS. Remember when Brady hurt his knee on opening weekend many years ago? They had no HOF QB waiting in the wings like a smart team would, and wound up missing the playoffs.

That’s actually a bad example. The Pats went 11-5 with Matt Cassel and somehow missed the playoffs. That’s the most wins in NFL history without clinching a playoff birth. The next year they went 10-6 with TB and made the playoffs. 

[raBBit]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Robert? 2 moderate injuries with a good amount of time missed in 2018, so banged up in 1 of his 2.5 pro seasons coming into this year. A lower injury risk than Eloy but obviously not zero.

Leury? Hurt ALL THE TIME. 60 day IL stint in 2020. 3 IL stints in 2018 with leg injuries.  2 IL stints in 2017 with hand injuries. Multiple minor league IL stints in 2016. Did you not watch any games those years? 

Dallas Keuchel, 2 months on the IL in 2017 with a neck injury, notable back issues in the short 2020 season leading to him being pulled early from a game but with no IL stint, and back injuries always linger.

You’re wrong on Robert as Robert had zero IL trips in the MLB coming into this season.

Leury was injured a good amount you’re right there but he’s inconsequential for the majority of his career. 

According to you, Keuchel had one IL stint 4 years ago over the course of a decade and was sore but didn’t go on the DL last year. He had zero missed time this year. Do you think he is injured particularly often for a pitcher in the 2010s?

You notably skipped Lopez and Engel so we know what that means.

So I guess you have a point that the Sox shouldn’t have relied on the 26th man to be their 5th outfielder? But he only missed a week this year due to a concussion that occurred in a weird stadium that’s had 1 game in its existence? 

Edited October 20, 2021 by raBBit

[South Side Hit Men]

20 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I can’t of wondered the same thing.  Could Hahn be considering an exit?  Seems super unlikely, but perhaps losing control to La Russa pushed him towards other opportunities.  Just seems odd the end of season presser wouldn’t have been this week.

At this point the players and coaches and FO completed year-end organizational meetings. Unless something big is in the works, can only speculate why Hahn hasn't hosted this discussion.

• Chicago N.L.: Jed Hoyer - October 9th

Teams eliminated in the Division Series Year End Press Conferences:

• Tampa Bay: Erik Neander - October 12th
• Milwaukee: David Stearns - October 15th
• San Francisco: Farhan Zaidi - October 18th
• Chicago A.L.: Rick Hahn ??? - Date ???

The FO stonewalled last winter after Tony's latest publicly known DUI arrest was known a few days after his hire. Tony was not available at the Managers meetings in December. Hahn made no comments or took no questions on it through the winter, and refused to answer Danny Parkins' question about it at Hahn's Spring Training Press Conference, still very relevant with the news below breaking earlier in the day from Reinsdorf's leak receptacle. 

 

[Balta1701]

22 minutes ago, raBBit said:

You’re wrong on Robert as Robert had zero IL trips in the MLB coming into this season.

Leury was injured a good amount you’re right there but he’s inconsequential for the majority of his career. 

According to you, Keuchel had one IL stint 4 years ago over the course of a decade and was sore but didn’t go on the DL last year. He had zero missed time this year. Do you think he is injured particularly often for a pitcher in the 2010s?

You notably skipped Lopez so we know what that means.

So I guess you have a point that the Sox shouldn’t have relied on the 26th man to be their 5th outfielder? But he only missed a week this year due to a concussion that occurred in a weird stadium that’s had 1 game in its existence? 

1. Was Robert in the MLB in 2018? Do minor league injuries not count as injuries? They happen to a different body?

2. I think Keuchel was a high injury risk coming into this year. Not Rodon high, but back injury following up on 2 shortened seasons - you had to expect a good chance of missed time.

3. Lopez has been generally healthy, save one event in 2017 where is elbow was sore, he told Renteria he was fine, Abreu went to the mound and asked “what’s really up” and he told Abreu his elbow felt funny. Please remember that level of detail the next time you think I haven’t watched enough of this team. He also had a shoulder injury in 2020. I have to give you credit for being right about Rodon coming into this year, you were. Did you think Lopez was serviceable this year? What about when he was terrible at Charlotte, did you expect a strong second half?

4. When Leury is on your bench, Eloy and Eaton are your starters, and the whole season of conditioning was messed up, then no, you cannot be surprised if your 26th man gets 120 starts. Leury stayed healthy and Engel didn’t, surprise?

[tray]

I would tell Hahn GFY and get anther GM, Then let that GM hire a new Manager subject to owbership approval.

As far as Hunch he can GFH as well.

RaBBit: 

Yes, in fact, Hinch absolutely knew about the cheating. That was the finding of the Commissioner.

"Hinch attempted to signal his disapproval of the
scheme by physically damaging the monitor on two occasions, necessitating its
replacement. However, Hinch admits he did not stop it and he did not notify players or
Cora that he disapproved of it, even after the Red Sox were disciplined in September 2017.
Similarly, he knew of and did not stop the communication of sign information from the
replay review room, although he disagreed with this practice as well and specifically voiced
his concerns on at least one occasion about the use of the replay phone for this purpose.
As the person with responsibility for managing his players and coaches, there simply is no
justification for Hinch’s failure to act. If Hinch was unsure about how to handle the
situation, it was his responsibility to bring the issue to the attention of Luhnow. Hinch
expressed much contrition both to me and my investigators for allowing the conduct to
continue. Although I appreciate Hinch’s remorsefulness, I must hold him accountable for
the conduct of his team, particularly since he had full knowledge of the conduct and  chose to allow it to continue throughout the 2017 Postseason."

Manfred considered banning Hinch from baseball, and IMO he should have. The conduct that he knew about was on par or perhaps worse than what the 1919 WSox did.

https://www.crawfishboxes.com/2020/1/13/21064270/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfreds-full-statement-on-the-houston-astros-sign-stealing-investigation a

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by tray

[tray]

How does Hinch have a job as Manager ? 

Might  as well reinstate  Pete and put him and Shoeless in the Hall of Fame without any asterisks.  

[A-Train to 35th]

6 hours ago, raBBit said:

This is just patently false.

Hahn may have wanted to hire Hinch and might have given Hinch the indication that he was the top candidate (when Hahn was under the impression he would be hiring his manager). Regardless of that, Hahn and Jeremy Haber were ready for a significant undertaking where they interviewed over a dozen candidates whether they were legitimately considering a given candidate or not. The Sox front office wanted to use a manager search not only to find the best candidate, but to interview coaches from around the league to learn about what other teams are doing in the dugout and potentially gain a competitive advantage. Reinsdorf didn't allow this to take place. He was set on LaRussa as soon as LaRussa gave any indication he would come out of retirement (as Nightengale reported from the start). 

The Sox front office blamed Renteria for the team losing the division the lead down the stretch in September and for bungling the pitching plan in game 3 against Oakland. Many of the players were not supportive of Renteria (namely Keuchel and some of the Spanish guys) and Hahn definitely wanted to move on from Renteria. Reinsdorf was very loyal to Renteria and listened to Hahn in that he needed to be replaced but did not support Hahn in doing his job. Reinsdorf looked at hiring LaRussa as both an incredible opportunity (hire a HOF manager who is his friend) and as a way to check Hahn's power which Reinsdorf believed he was overstepping his depths. 

Who knows who Reinsdorf would side with if there were a difference of opinion between Kenny Williams and LaRussa, but Hahn is clearly #3 in baseball operations as far as Reinsdorf is concerned. 

For a minute there I actually thought you had insider information as if you were a member of the Sox front office, but sorry you lost me when you stated "namely Keuchel and some of the Spanish guys". 

[South Side Hit Men]

Wonder if there are any other surgeries (beyond Grandal and Marshall) or other shoes to drop before Hahn addresses the media for an end of season press conference, assuming he does.

[tray]

1 hour ago, A-Train to 35th said:

For a minute there I actually thought you had insider information as if you were a member of the Sox front office, but sorry you lost me when you stated "namely Keuchel and some of the Spanish guys". 

Some posters/admins  here  threw down the race card for far less than that. 

[ron883]

9 hours ago, raBBit said:

This is just patently false.

Hahn may have wanted to hire Hinch and might have given Hinch the indication that he was the top candidate (when Hahn was under the impression he would be hiring his manager). Regardless of that, Hahn and Jeremy Haber were ready for a significant undertaking where they interviewed over a dozen candidates whether they were legitimately considering a given candidate or not. The Sox front office wanted to use a manager search not only to find the best candidate, but to interview coaches from around the league to learn about what other teams are doing in the dugout and potentially gain a competitive advantage. Reinsdorf didn't allow this to take place. He was set on LaRussa as soon as LaRussa gave any indication he would come out of retirement (as Nightengale reported from the start). 

The Sox front office blamed Renteria for the team losing the division the lead down the stretch in September and for bungling the pitching plan in game 3 against Oakland. Many of the players were not supportive of Renteria (namely Keuchel and some of the Spanish guys) and Hahn definitely wanted to move on from Renteria. Reinsdorf was very loyal to Renteria and listened to Hahn in that he needed to be replaced but did not support Hahn in doing his job. Reinsdorf looked at hiring LaRussa as both an incredible opportunity (hire a HOF manager who is his friend) and as a way to check Hahn's power which Reinsdorf believed he was overstepping his depths. 

Who knows who Reinsdorf would side with if there were a difference of opinion between Kenny Williams and LaRussa, but Hahn is clearly #3 in baseball operations as far as Reinsdorf is concerned. 

This seems so toxic... The GM SHOULD be able to fire and hire the manager of his choice... Reinsdorf thought he was overstepping his boundaries by doing what every GM does, so he big timed him to out him in check? That's really how it went down? I figured it was simply because he lives La Russa, not also to put Hahn in his place. 

[A-Train to 35th]

52 minutes ago, tray said:

Some posters/admins  here  threw down the race card for far less than that. 

The funny thing is,  I said "Jerry was to blame" and he goes on to say my comment was "patently false", then he goes to great lengths to say it was Jerry's fault.  Then he agree's with my comment  that Hahn wanted Hinch "Hahn may have wanted to hire Hinch and might have given Hinch the indication that he was the top candidate".  

We also saw Hinch's signature on the Tony LaRussa welcome the new Sox manager post, so that leads me to believe Hahn's mind was set on Hinch.  Anyway it's all water under the bridge, Jerry, Tony and Kenny aren't going anywhere soon.  Once they do we can only pray for an owner that want's to win at all cost.

[Texsox]

11 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I hope most have the same visceral reaction to “hopefully they will be healthy”. If you’re trying to solve this part of the problem, the GM has to assume they won’t be healthy with this roster and provide real depth, not Nick Williams and Billy Hamilton playing key roles in April after being plucked off the shelf with minor league deals late in the offseason” depth.

You mean like trading for the best relief pitcher in the NL? That should have been the kind of depth that wins. 

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

You mean like trading for the best relief pitcher in the NL? That should have been the kind of depth that wins. 

But very few expected that to continue...he was at 0.52 ERA, and that was as the closer and not in 8th inning or 7th inning high/er leverage.

Plus, the whole NL Central outside of Cincy couldn't hit very well this year, another clue.

[Snopek]

10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

But very few expected that to continue...he was at 0.52 ERA, and that was as the closer and not in 8th inning or 7th inning high/er leverage.

Plus, the whole NL Central outside of Cincy couldn't hit very well this year, another clue.

I mean, sure, in hindsight this all seems crystal clear, but:

- Is a 0.52 ERA sustainable? Probably not. But I'd argue that just as few people anticipated an ERA over 5 the rest of the way.

- I feel like the closer vs non-closer argument didn't really gain traction until well after the trade when we were looking for answers for his struggles.

- He had 39 appearances in the 2021 season with the Cubs, but only 19 of those were vs the NL Central. And if you want to remove the Reds from that, as your point indicates, 14 of his 39 appearances were against the rest of the weak hitting NL Central. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=kimbrcr01&t=p&year=2021

Was it a bad trade? Of course. It turned out to be an absolutely awful trade. You could argue they gave up too much, ignored larger areas of need at the deadline in favor of this, and stubbornly mismanaged Kimbrel down the stretch and I'd completely agree with you. But I'm not on board with the argument that they should have foreseen this type of implosion coming for the reasons you say.

[BrittBurnsFan]

3 hours ago, Snopek said:

But I'm not on board with the argument that they should have foreseen this type of implosion coming for the reasons you say.

I agree with you on this point.  But both KW and RH gushed publicly about how much they wanted Kimbral.  Even stating that he was essentially the 1 guy they wanted to add more so than any other option that may have been available.  I think that plays into the criticism of the trade.  Had the FO not patted themselves on the back so much...there might be less "anger" about the results. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by BrittBurnsFan

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, Snopek said:

I mean, sure, in hindsight this all seems crystal clear, but:

- Is a 0.52 ERA sustainable? Probably not. But I'd argue that just as few people anticipated an ERA over 5 the rest of the way.

- I feel like the closer vs non-closer argument didn't really gain traction until well after the trade when we were looking for answers for his struggles.

- He had 39 appearances in the 2021 season with the Cubs, but only 19 of those were vs the NL Central. And if you want to remove the Reds from that, as your point indicates, 14 of his 39 appearances were against the rest of the weak hitting NL Central. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=kimbrcr01&t=p&year=2021

Was it a bad trade? Of course. It turned out to be an absolutely awful trade. You could argue they gave up too much, ignored larger areas of need at the deadline in favor of this, and stubbornly mismanaged Kimbrel down the stretch and I'd completely agree with you. But I'm not on board with the argument that they should have foreseen this type of implosion coming for the reasons you say.

The biggest reasons given, and that I saw, were some terrible defense behind him, as well as the whole "not closing" part.

It turned out awful, but the worst implications long term is if it gives Jerry a reason to not want to move at the top of the market because of risk.

[Snopek]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It turned out awful, but the worst implications long term is if it gives Jerry a reason to not want to move at the top of the market because of risk.

Yep. I've had similar thoughts with how the Keuchel contract is playing out. (Although his regression should have been a little easier to see coming than Kimbrel's IMO.)

And yeah, technically Keuchel was not "top of the market," but in the White Sox world he basically was. 

[Balta1701]

52 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The biggest reasons given, and that I saw, were some terrible defense behind him, as well as the whole "not closing" part.

It turned out awful, but the worst implications long term is if it gives Jerry a reason to not want to move at the top of the market because of risk.

Aside from the catching spot, Craig Kimbrel should rely on defense less than almost anyone else in baseball. 

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Aside from the catching spot, Craig Kimbrel should rely on defense less than almost anyone else in baseball. 

Yet if you go back, both hurt him, a lot.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yet if you go back, both hurt him, a lot.

His FIP with the white Sox was 4.56. It might have been a minor factor, but so many bigger problems.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

His FIP with the white Sox was 4.56. It might have been a minor factor, but so many bigger problems.

Watching the games it was a much bigger factor than that number shows.