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Dominikk85

What to do with the abreu/vaughn/sheets/burger logjam in 2022?

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I am not a big fan of Sheets' swing. Seems slow and loopy. I'm always waiting for him to pop it up on the infield. I wonder if he will ever be a major league hitter.

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Sheets had 1/3 of the team's extra base hits in the postseason despite only playing in 3 of the games. He's the one guy who legitimately came up big in the big moments and Soxtalk wants to send his ass back to AAA so we can shove Eloy and Vaughn into the same lineup.

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18 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I am not a big fan of Sheets' swing. Seems slow and loopy. I'm always waiting for him to pop it up on the infield. I wonder if he will ever be a major league hitter.

I mean, he just put up a 125 wRC+ in his rookie season.  He has already been a productive major league hitter, the only question is can he sustain that production.  And his infield pop up rate didn’t seem that crazy to me.

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44 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I mean, he just put up a 125 wRC+ in his rookie season.  He has already been a productive major league hitter, the only question is can he sustain that production.  And his infield pop up rate didn’t seem that crazy to me.

At best, you get a reliever for him.  He has more value to the White Sox…

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2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

I am not a big fan of Sheets' swing. Seems slow and loopy. I'm always waiting for him to pop it up on the infield. I wonder if he will ever be a major league hitter.

He is a more selective hitter than some of the other deadwood in that lineup. We will find out next season I hope. 

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A good discussion here with the exception of a ridiculous suggestion that Eloy has lost his power.  Valid points made otherwise, but I think there is a larger issue revealed by the DH conundrum .  I question the collective judgment of those who decided to Draft Vaughn and Burger, players that did not and do not fill any need that the Sox have or will have in the near future.  There was no need for another 3B/1B/DH RH hitter at the time they were Drafted.  Then the Sox follow up by Drafting Madrigal  who actually did profile as a player who could  fill a needed role. Then trade Madrigal based on some ill-conceived notion that Kimbrel would make the bullpen invincible and almost assure success in the playoffs. Then award Hahn with Exec of the year and blame LaRussa for every on-field decision that did not work out.

Now no second basement, no RF, but a boatload of one tool RH hitters. 

The Sox are lucky to have Gavin Sheets or they would have lost 10-0.  If Sheets excels in Spring Training, perhaps he starts the season as the full-time DH.

Who starts in  LF and RF in 2022?  IMO, Eloy  in LF and Vaughn in RF, unless a trade is made that changes the mix. Second base - possibly Romy Gonzalez or trade for someone.

All of this may not make a difference if the rotation ends up being as weak and unreliable as it was at the end of this season. 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, tray said:

A good discussion here with the exception of a ridiculous suggestion that Eloy has lost his power.  Valid points made otherwise, but I think there is a larger issue revealed by the DH conundrum .  I question the collective judgment of those who decided to Draft Vaughn and Burger, players that did not and do not fill any need that the Sox have or will have in the near future.  There was no need for another 3B/1B/DH RH hitter at the time they were Drafted.  Then the Sox follow up by Drafting Madrigal  who actually did profile as a player who could  fill a needed role. Then trade Madrigal based on some ill-conceived notion that Kimbrel would make the bullpen invincible and almost assure success in the playoffs. Then award Hahn with Exec of the year and blame LaRussa for every on-field decision that did not work out.

Now no second basement, no RF, but a boatload of one tool RH hitters. 

The Sox are lucky to have Gavin Sheets or they would have lost 10-0.  If Sheets excels in Spring Training, perhaps he starts the season as the full-time DH.

Who starts in  LF and RF in 2022?  IMO, Eloy  in LF and Vaughn in RF, unless a trade is made that changes the mix. Second base - possibly Romy Gonzalez or trade for someone.

All of this may not make a difference if the rotation ends up being as weak and unreliable as it was at the end of this season. 

 

 

 

 

 

If you go into the season counting on Romy Gonzalez to start, you’re going to be fortunate just to win the division…

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2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

At best, you get a reliever for him.  He has more value to the White Sox…

Agree.

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figure out who you can live without and trade a couple, ABREAU is out, too much of a team leader and clubhouse presence

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5 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

We need a lefty power hiiting right fielder and I think we should give Sheets a crash course in playing the posistion, whatever happens if he can't hack in right field we still should still keep him as a DH from the left side and also because when Abreu slows down Sheets can take over at first.

Burger is another story, if Yoan wasn't such good third sacker I would put him at second and give the 3B job to Burger but that's not going to happen so maybe one of them gets traded for a second baseman with some pop. It would a no brainer to keep Yoan but I'm disappointed in his production, 14 homers and 61 RBI is not what we traded Sale for.

Sheets was really bad in limited time in RF.  I’ve seen enough to say he’s a DH only. 

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5 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Sheets had 1/3 of the team's extra base hits in the postseason despite only playing in 3 of the games. He's the one guy who legitimately came up big in the big moments and Soxtalk wants to send his ass back to AAA so we can shove Eloy and Vaughn into the same lineup.

You think Sheets would have a better year than Eloy and Vaughn next year?

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14 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of rocking both Eloy & Vaughn in the OF corners.  As such, the Sox need to prioritize adding a left-handed, power hitting RF who can at least be averagely defensively.  And the more and more I think about it, Michael Conforto is 100% the guy we should be targeting.  One way or the other, the front office needs to find a way to get this done, because I don’t see a trade option that fits all three criteria (not optimistic that Austin Meadows can meet the defensive criteria).

For the sake of this exercise, let’s assume we sign Conforto to a multi-year deal that locks down RF for the near future.  This would leave the following corner guys under control:

Player | 2022 Age | Handedness | Control Left | AAV | 2021 wRC+

  • Jose Abreu (1B/DH) | 35 | RH | 1 | $18.0M | 126
  • Eloy Jimenez (LF/DH) | 25 | RH | 5 | $12.8M | 101
  • Andrew Vaughn (1B/OF/DH) | 24 | RH | 5 | NA | 94
  • Gavin Sheets (1B/OF/DH) | 26 | LH | 6 | NA | 125
  • Jake Burger (3B/1B/DH) | 26 | RH | 6 | NA | 120

That’s a ton of talent for a handful of spots and it’s clear at least one or two guys would need to be moved (primarily to fill other needs).  Just to get this off the table, but zero chance they trade Abreu, so let’s consider him a lock for 1B next year.  That leaves the remaining four guys to cover LF and DH and possibly provide some depth at 1B & RF.

To me, I have zero interest in moving Eloy.  He has by far the highest offensive ceiling on the entire team and put up a 139 wRC+ season as recently as 2020.  He’s also the second youngest of the group and is under control for the next five years at a very reasonable rate.  I get the defensive / health concerns, but for a team looking to improve against RHP he is simply not a guy we can afford to move IMO.

When it comes to the remaining three, I think Burger is all but a certainty to be moved this offseason.  His ability to play an ok 3B makes him the unicorn of the group and expands the pool of teams that might have interest.  I’m 100% convinced he gets traded and likely for a controllable reliever.  I truly believe in Burger’s offensive talent, but there are just too many guys ahead him in the pecking order and we have too many holes on the roster to keep him around as as depth piece.

That leaves Vaughn & Sheets, neither guy I would like to move.  And in a perfect world we’d keep both of them around and simply try to rotate them in at DH, 1B, LF, & RF.  As we’ve in recent years, depth is incredibly important and this would be a possible to accomplish that.   The challenge I see is twofold.  First, it just seems like Andrew would get the short end of the stick and end up a platoon bat.  Second, as alluded to many times, we have too many holes and not enough financial flexibility to fill them all in free agency.  If a trade needs to be made to fill an important hole, it’s very clear IMO that Vaughn is the guy who will be able to bring back such a piece.  I don’t want to see him go, but I’d rather move for him at full value then trade Sheets for 50 cents on the dollar, as the more I watched Gavin the more I became I believer of his ability to hit RHP incredibly well.  Hopefully Uncle Jerry will push the payroll beyond the $170M figure I’ve got cemented in my head, but if not, I’d be willing to dangle Andrew out there if that’s what it took to strength the team.

I agree with this. If Andrew's trade value is still really high, and I suspect it is, I'd look in to moving him for a young controllable arm with TOR potential. You can go back to last year's rumor when Milwaukee supposedly wanted him to headline a deal for Burnes. Something like that, though obviously Burnes wouldn't be available now.

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14 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I mean, he just put up a 125 wRC+ in his rookie season.  He has already been a productive major league hitter, the only question is can he sustain that production.  And his infield pop up rate didn’t seem that crazy to me.

Just making an observation. Hopefully he will develop next year. That swing just doesn't look all that good to me.

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On 10/16/2021 at 4:38 PM, Chimpton said:

Which of those players would bring the greatest return if traded?

And which realistically could be traded/ would generate interest?

 

The biggest return would obviously come from trading Vaughn but he also is likely the player with the most future value so by trading him you would lose value that his trade return would need to bring back. 

I also agree that depth is good and injuries do happen but having Vaughn, Jose, sheets and burger on the same 25 man roster is costing the team in other areas and while sheets and burger have options they are too old and advanced to be stached in the minors, if they are 27-28 in 2 years their value is zero. 

That means some decisions likely have to be made. 

I don't think the sox should trade Vaughn, I think Vaughn can be similarly good as konerko and Jose at first and we don't know what the Sox have with sheets and burger

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17 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Sheets had 1/3 of the team's extra base hits in the postseason despite only playing in 3 of the games. He's the one guy who legitimately came up big in the big moments and Soxtalk wants to send his ass back to AAA so we can shove Eloy and Vaughn into the same lineup.

Holy SSS. Vaughn and Eloy have much much much more offensive talent than Gavin Sheets. Sheets has a role of this team but my lord, people wanting to push those 2 aside for Sheets are nuts. 

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1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

Holy SSS. Vaughn and Eloy have much much much more offensive talent than Gavin Sheets. Sheets has a role of this team but my lord, people wanting to push those 2 aside for Sheets are nuts. 

It's not just that, it's that Sheets is lefty and those other two are not.

I maintain that a lineup with Eloy, Vaughn and Abreu all in it is not going to succeed.

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1 hour ago, CentralChamps21 said:

It's not just that, it's that Sheets is lefty and those other two are not.

I maintain that a lineup with Eloy, Vaughn and Abreu all in it is not going to succeed.

Eloy hits righties as well as lefties. Vaughn has ridiculous upside with the bat. Abreu isn't going anywhere, even if his production falls off a cliff. Sheets is the odd man out. 

Most teams would be happy to have those 3 in a lineup. Saying they won't succeed is ridiculous. 

Edited by ron883

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1 hour ago, CentralChamps21 said:

It's not just that, it's that Sheets is lefty and those other two are not.

I maintain that a lineup with Eloy, Vaughn and Abreu all in it is not going to succeed.

Yet they won 93 games.

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4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yet they won 93 games.

Consider this hypothetical…

Throw out the Twins, Royals, Orioles, Rangers, and Angels out of the AL. Sox play the other 9 AL teams 18 games each for 162. What’s their record and where do the finish in the league? Until it’s 90 and they’re one of the top 3, they’ll never get to a World Series. So our 93-win team is ok, but not really a championship quality team yet. 

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23 minutes ago, flavum said:

Consider this hypothetical…

Throw out the Twins, Royals, Orioles, Rangers, and Angels out of the AL. Sox play the other 9 AL teams 18 games each for 162. What’s their record and where do the finish in the league? Until it’s 90 and they’re one of the top 3, they’ll never get to a World Series. So our 93-win team is ok, but not really a championship quality team yet. 

But every team plays bad teams, in and out of their own division. It’s ridiculous to take those wins out and run some hypothetical scenario. Do you think the Red Sox win 90 games only playing the 9 best teams? Of course not. They even beat a team in the ALDS that they struggled against during the regular season to be in the ALCS and in a position to win. 

The White Sox certainly need to improve where they can, but they aren’t a bad team because they can beat really bad teams. 

Edited by Greg Hibbard

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1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Yet they won 93 games.

Won 93 games, but very few of them had all three in the lineup.

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2 hours ago, flavum said:

Consider this hypothetical…

Throw out the Twins, Royals, Orioles, Rangers, and Angels out of the AL. Sox play the other 9 AL teams 18 games each for 162. What’s their record and where do the finish in the league? Until it’s 90 and they’re one of the top 3, they’ll never get to a World Series. So our 93-win team is ok, but not really a championship quality team yet. 

BS. What was the Sox record vs. good teams when they won the WS?

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16 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

BS. What was the Sox record vs. good teams when they won the WS?

I got 39-33 against teams above .500 in 2005. 

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Steve Stone dissects how good teams like the Astros take advantage of defensive lapses, with comments focused on Eloy and Grandal, including Grandal’s inability to block sliders in the dirt.

He also called out the lack of fundamentals all season, and poor defensive catchers including the backups.

 

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I think we need to pump the brakes on Sheets around here.  It’s a good thing Mercedes didn’t have his good two weeks in September/October or we might be penciling him in to next year’s lineup.

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