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ron883

Abreu next year and in the future

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On 10/19/2021 at 12:34 PM, poppysox said:

Eloy would probably get my vote.  His final month of the season was really disappointing but I chalk it up to the long layoff.  I am probably overreacting to Abreu and the DP problem.  He has really seemly turned into a rally killer IMO.

this coming from teh same guy that was bitching about abreu hitting with RISP in the playoffs... when he was batting .500 with RISP

 

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On 10/19/2021 at 12:34 PM, poppysox said:

Eloy would probably get my vote.  His final month of the season was really disappointing but I chalk it up to the long layoff.  I am probably overreacting to Abreu and the DP problem.  He has really seemly turned into a rally killer IMO.

One of the best rbi guys of our time is anything but a rally killer lol

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2 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

One of the best rbi guys of our time is anything but a rally killer lol

No one said Abreu is all washed up.  He has produced very well overall.  Three rbi's in four games of playoff baseball is not all that impressive IMO.  His rbi totals are a result of the high OBP guys in front of him as well as his personal abilities.  Age will slowly lessen his abilities as it did Konerko and the fourth or fifth spot in the lineup is better suited IMO.  

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On 10/18/2021 at 8:41 PM, joesaiditstrue said:

Abreu (and TA) will retire here, these threads are dumb

Guys I would look at possibly moving would be Grandal (I didn't know he was this bad defensively) and possibly Eloy or Vaughn, use them to upgrade at spots like RF and SP

I'm not saying trade all 3 guys, but I would definitely look at moving one of them if the return was decent

lol at complaining about these threads then suggesting trading Grandal.

Grandal has played 139 games since 2020 and put up 5.3 fWAR. That's elite production, and obviously he was playing hurt for most of the year.

How do so many of our fans not understand how good Grandal is?

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21 minutes ago, CeaseAndExist said:

lol at complaining about these threads then suggesting trading Grandal.

Grandal has played 139 games since 2020 and put up 5.3 fWAR. That's elite production, and obviously he was playing hurt for most of the year.

How do so many of our fans not understand how good Grandal is?

Cause he’s injured a lot, can’t block pitches in the dirt, calls a mediocre game (partially due to his inability to block in the dirt), and his framing is overrated. I don’t think anyone hates on his ability on the offensive side of things. 

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5 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

Cause he’s injured a lot, can’t block pitches in the dirt, calls a mediocre game (partially due to his inability to block in the dirt), and his framing is overrated. I don’t think anyone hates on his ability on the offensive side of things. 

If posters like you were GM we'd be 0-162 every season.

I mean wow, what a terrible take

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10 minutes ago, CeaseAndExist said:

If posters like you were GM we'd be 0-162 every season.

I mean wow, what a terrible take

Sure that’s your OPINION, just like mine was mine. I watch the games the same as you. I’m just sharing why other fans think he’s not as “good” as you say he is in your original post 🤙🏼

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14 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

Cause he’s injured a lot, can’t block pitches in the dirt, calls a mediocre game (partially due to his inability to block in the dirt), and his framing is overrated. I don’t think anyone hates on his ability on the offensive side of things. 

I'm still in awe. Let me guess, you think Moncada sucks too, right?

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Just now, CeaseAndExist said:

I'm still in awe. Let me guess, you think Moncada sucks too, right?

He’s frustrating considering all the hype he had, but I like his game. Would like a little more pop from the corner spot, but I don’t think he sucks.

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Well, that whole three outcome thing....like a Dunn or Gallo or Thome, that's also part of it with Grandal, obviously.

Just a stylistic difference, and perhaps not agreeing with OPS and or the weighting given to walks compared to hits (see Moncada's 2021 vs. 2019).

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Just now, ShoeLessRob said:

Sure that’s your OPINION, just like mine was mine. I watch the games the same as you. I’m just sharing why other fans think he’s not as “good” as you say he is in your original post 🤙🏼

Your OPINION runs contrary to basic stats. Since 2015, Grandal ranks among MLB C

WAR: 1st

Defensive Rating (Fangraphs): 1st

Games Played: 3rd

Yeah that definitely sounds like the injury prone, horrible defensive catcher we should trade away, lol

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Just now, CeaseAndExist said:

Your OPINION runs contrary to basic stats. Since 2015, Grandal ranks among MLB C

WAR: 1st

Defensive Rating (Fangraphs): 1st

Games Played: 3rd

Yeah that definitely sounds like the injury prone, horrible defensive catcher we should trade away, lol

Did I ever say we should trade him? Cool with the stats from 2015. Let’s talk about the last two years when he’s been on OUR team. has he been injured both years? When you watch him play does he look like a gold glove catcher to you? I’m ignoring the throwing runners out, cause that’s just as much as the pitching staff fault. 

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The injury prone bash really made me laugh though, so thanks for that. I mean, imagine calling the catcher who is 3rd in MLB in games played since 2015 "injury prone", lol.

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4 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

Did I ever say we should trade him? Cool with the stats from 2015. Let’s talk about the last two years when he’s been on OUR team. has he been injured both years? When you watch him play does he look like a gold glove catcher to you? I’m ignoring the throwing runners out, cause that’s just as much as the pitching staff fault. 

Yeah, assessing much further back than a 2-3 year time frame of statistics (just because 2020 was truncated) makes almost no sense, especially for a catcher closing in on his mid 30's and leaving the early 30's in the rearview mirror.

The only ones who seemingly beat that prior trendline were Sal Perez and Buster Posey.

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3 minutes ago, CeaseAndExist said:

The injury prone bash really made me laugh though, so thanks for that. I mean, imagine calling the catcher who is 3rd in MLB in games played since 2015 "injury prone", lol.

Once again, last 2-3 years.

I mean, we'd also love to have 2014-15 Jose Abreu back, right?

Or Adam Eaton?

 

I mean, if we go back another 5 years, we'd have HoFer Albert Pujols and not the broken down versions of him or Miguel Cabrera.

 

Edited by caulfield12
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4 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said:

Did I ever say we should trade him? Cool with the stats from 2015. Let’s talk about the last two years when he’s been on OUR team. has he been injured both years? When you watch him play does he look like a gold glove catcher to you? I’m ignoring the throwing runners out, cause that’s just as much as the pitching staff fault. 

lol. He had a knee injury this year. Nobody disputes that.

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Back on topic folks. We're talking about Abreu's upcoming demise and how it will be handled.

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4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Yeah, assessing much further back than a 2-3 year time frame of statistics (just because 2020 was truncated) makes almost no sense, especially for a catcher closing in on his mid 30's and leaving the early 30's in the rearview mirror.

The only ones who seemingly beat that prior trendline were Sal Perez and Buster Posey.

Ok. Since 2019, Grandal ranks:

WAR: 2nd

Defensive Rating: 7th

GP: 4th

You and Rob might want to find a different player to me statistically wrong criticisms about

 

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8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Once again, last 2-3 years.

I mean, we'd also love to have 2014-15 Jose Abreu back, right?

Or Adam Eaton?

 

I mean, if we go back another 5 years, we'd have HoFer Albert Pujols and not the broken down versions of him or Miguel Cabrera.

 

I did since 2019, now try again

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I hope Vaughn  or Sheets take over at first base in 2023 or 2024, but I am not as confident in projecting that as some others are.

I have heard all the sweet talk from Steve Stone  and others about these players, but I , for one, need to see them put up the numbers.

On the defensive side, Sheets and Vaughn may never have the skill set that Jose has at 1B. He can pick it there Wilson.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, tray said:

I hope Vaughn  or Sheets take over at first base in 2023 or 2024, but I am not as confident in projecting that as some others are.

I have heard all the sweet talk from Steve Stone  and others about these players, but I , for one, need to see them put up the numbers.

On the defensive side, Sheets and Vaughn may never have the skill set that Jose has at 1B. He can pick it there Wilson.

 

 

Lol, is Jose a gold glove 1st baseman now? He was awful in the past, and he has improved to average. Let's quit overrating Abreu's defense. 

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I'm not suggesting we do trade Abreu, I think keeping him in 2022 is a better option at the moment, but IF he was traded what would you get in return, and would that make the team stronger than with Abreu?

For all the talk of Vaughan or others replacing him at 1b, at least with Abreu you know what you get, barring a drop-off due to age, but with all the in house possibles such as Vaughan, Sheets or even as some say Eloy, there is nor guarantee that they would actually match his output. Vaughan and Sheets are 2nd season players who could kick on or have a 2nd year slump and Eloy is returning after a less than stellar year in 2021 due to injury and loss of form.

Added to that Abreu's undoubted clubhouse presence and I think his value to the Sox outweighs anything we would get back in a trade. As for beyond 2022 I am sure he would wait for the Sox to make him an offer once they see what his 2022 output is like, and if 2022 is a big dip in form then and only then will the decision to let him go be necessary.

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5 hours ago, ron883 said:

Lol, is Jose a gold glove 1st baseman now? He was awful in the past, and he has improved to average. Let's quit overrating Abreu's defense. 

Abreu wasn't especially 'awful' in years past, he was simply a below average fielding first baseman. In 2021 he improved his game to the point that he was an above average 1B. GG? errrr no - but still - he was a sold plus in the field this year. What concerns me about Abreu is the drop in BA and most glaringly the GIDP. In a New Age lineup batting him in the 3-slot probably makes sense, even though 5 or 6 might be just as productive. Of course, considering his status in the organization, the question would be - is he willing to change lineup positions?

p.s. The notion of trading or even non-tendering Abreu is not at all practical. The Konerko parallel aside, the Sox are fully committed to the Cuban Connection and the Cuban players on board and coming up through the system have a high regard for Pito. Simply ditching him would not go over well with these guys. Even in his twilight years, Abreu will be a significant value-added element in the Sox culture and not just as a figurehead.

Edited by FoxForce2

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2 hours ago, Chimpton said:

I'm not suggesting we do trade Abreu, I think keeping him in 2022 is a better option at the moment, but IF he was traded what would you get in return, and would that make the team stronger than with Abreu?

For all the talk of Vaughan or others replacing him at 1b, at least with Abreu you know what you get, barring a drop-off due to age, but with all the in house possibles such as Vaughan, Sheets or even as some say Eloy, there is nor guarantee that they would actually match his output. Vaughan and Sheets are 2nd season players who could kick on or have a 2nd year slump and Eloy is returning after a less than stellar year in 2021 due to injury and loss of form.

Added to that Abreu's undoubted clubhouse presence and I think his value to the Sox outweighs anything we would get back in a trade. As for beyond 2022 I am sure he would wait for the Sox to make him an offer once they see what his 2022 output is like, and if 2022 is a big dip in form then and only then will the decision to let him go be necessary.

We actually have a trade comp that is somewhat recent. Abreu has outperformed Anthony Rizzo the last 2 seasons but Rizzo was better in 2019, and their salaries are comparable. Rizzo is a lefty and that filled a major need for the Yankees. 

Rizzo returned a 24 year old injured pitcher from their 40 man roster with a career minor league ERA of 5 and a BB/9 IP this year of just about 9, and a 19 year old international signing from A-Ball who had solid numbers this year but who averages under 2 pitches per plate appearance so he has some work to do before having a game that will translate to the big leagues. That would have been a fine return for the 2016 White Sox for a player, but it’s hard to see how that return would make a substantial dent in the 2022 White Sox.

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I hope Abreu has a few productive years left in him but this team is too good to keep him around just for sentimentality reasons.  That said, his trade value isn’t much either.  He’s clearly back next year and then they can reevaluate what sort of contract to offer him after that.  

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