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So What Do The Dodgers Do This Off Season To Get To Be As Good As The Braves?

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35 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Braves were 31-37 against teams better than .500.

Braves won an awful division with less than 90 wins.

It's IMPOSSIBLE for this Sox team to make or win a World Series. The playoffs are not a coin flip where fluke things, like Eddie Rosario becoming a god, have much impact at all. We should blow up the entire roster, because we have no chance! We had a losing record vs winning teams and only won our division because it sucked.

 

Yes - in the Sox fan world (or any fan nation for that matter), many think in terms of "All is for the best in this best of all possible worlds!"
I wonder if Nick Saban has ever bought into this way of thinking? He seems more like a Constant Improvement Process/Performance Management (CIPM) Six Sigma and Total Quality Management (TQM) kind of guy to me.
Rah Rah Siss Boom Baaaaaa! Oh wait - that's football.
Go Sox!

Edited by FoxForce2

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6 hours ago, Soxsi75 said:

Actually it was worse. Two teams in the NL East lost more games than any team in the AL Central. 

Agree. Philly was at least over .500 but the AL Central did not have any team as bad as the bottom of the NL East  

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21 hours ago, Soxsi75 said:

I know we are White Sox fans on here, but we are also baseball fans. So since the Dodgers were clearly inferior to the Braves this year getting their asses handed to them in the playoffs, just like our White Sox were lambasted for being so inferior because we lost a playoff series, and I've heard all this talk about all that needs to be changed with this Sox team because we lost a playoff series, what do the Dodgers need to do to get themselves to be on the same level as the Braves?..............

.........oh wait. The Dodgers were 18 games better than the Braves during the season? So they really were better? Well, they lost a playoff series to them. Which proves one thing boys and girls. THE PLAYOFFS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A CRAPSHOOT!!

Now to begin with, I'm not ignorant enough to believe we don't have deficiencies to work on this off season. We don't have a right fielder, (actually we didn't have one before the season and didn't bother to get one,) we don't have a good every day second baseman and Kimbrel was a train wreck. But all I've heard since we lost the series to Houston is all that's wrong with us on here. I've even heard one idiotic comment on here that one of our problems is Abreu and Jimenez are too much alike so we need to get rid of one of them because of that. Now I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I can't let this ridiculously ignorant statement go. Maybe the Dodgers should get rid of Justin Turner, Max Muncy and Chris Taylor because they are all proponents of the "launch angle" theory, and therefore too much alike!! ( And yes, I know Muncy hits lefthanded so please, nobody comment on here that Muncy is different from Turner and Taylor being left handed. Because they all have something in common buying into the launch angle theory. ) But hey, they lost in the playoffs with these guys.....so I guess they aren't good enough.

I said in another post on here that only one team will win it all and everyone else will end up a loser. And the fact is that the FIFTH best team in the NL this year won the pennant!!

So let's here it everyone. We're number 5! We're number 5! We're number 5!! Is that a chant heard very often??

I guess my main point on here is the White Sox had a good year and won their division. And they will continue to be a strong team with this nucleus. What I feel proves this is we won 93 games without even being REMOTELY healthy. Do we have some work to do in the off season? Of course, as I stated two paragraphs ago. But to barbecue this team because we lost a playoff series? That's ridiculous. And if you believe we should, then you better to make sure you rip on the Dodgers, Giants, Rays and Brewers, all teams that won more games than we did, and also lost in the playoffs.

Playoffs are a crapshoot boys and girls. Pure and simple. If your team wins it, enjoy and celebrate it. If you don't, nowadays it doesn't prove a thing. 

And maybe I'm being a bit sensitive because an analogy I've always liked to use, is your favorite baseball team is like your little brother. You can rip and pick on him all you want but nobody else better do it. So hearing the White Sox get ripped on here so heavily makes me defensive. Even if it is by other Sox fans. 

And guess what? We may shore up all our weaknesses this off season, get back to the playoffs..........and possibly lose again in the playoffs next year. Because winning a championship is never promised and the playoffs are a crapshoot. If you don't believe me, than just ask the Dodgers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fans are entitled to blog their opinions on how to improve their favorite teams without 9 paragraphs of rightious rambling on how we should be grateful (I think that is your point) for the early exit because 'the playoffs are a crapshoot boys and girls'.  I give you an A for word count though.   

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1 hour ago, CeaseAndExist said:

well done, but don't worry, our fanbase holds the Sox to a completely different standards.

Hell just imagine if we had won 107 games then lost in the DS. The internet might explode with our fans calling the season a massive failure as it is

There is a difference between losing a well played, close series played to the limit like the 2-1 Game 5 Dodgers 2 Giants 1, as opposed to bowing out 10-1 blowout, and losing by 5 the other two games. The White Sox were not even close to competitive against Houston, the least competitive series of the six playoff series to date. The Sox were outplayed and outmanaged in every aspect, from the first portion of Game 1 with La Russa panicking and sending the infield in early in a 1-0 game, through the Game 4 postgame, where Tony's primary focus was crying about "intentional HBPs", the "unwritten rules" which was his primary focus all season, beyond Connie Mack.

To chalk up playoff results to "it's just a coin flip", and not recognize several weaknesses in team play, management and approach (hitting, defense, pitch calling) is avoiding acknowledgment there is a lot of work and changes required to get to the point the Sox can be consistently competitive against the best teams in baseball, and in the best position to tilt the odds in their favor with each pitch, at bat, each contested 90 feet, every inning and game.

Last year Hahn made Ricky the scapegoat, and ownership claimed Tony was the right man to "win now". Tony's Stan's here claimed Tony's switch would work in the post-season, and after defeat now claim it took Tony a year just to get to know people, and he and his staff will begin performing their jobs next season. We are still waiting to possibly hear from Hahn about his analysis of what went wrong against Houston, and what their plans are to rectify these shortcomings in 2022.

Houston wasn't whining about being without Verlander or Greinke as a starter, and against Boston also playing without McCullers. They just went out there and took care of business. That's what a well managed team does, overcome adversity, and focus on the task at hand which is winning the game, not focusing on gamesmanship and unwritten rules 

  • Withholding the rotation and Game 1 lineup until the last minute
  • Tepera whining about cheating. instead of talking about his team's performance, after the one game the Sox actually played well
  • Tony stating Kopech was unavailable for Game 4, whereas he's the first man out of the bullpen
  • La Russa whining about Dusty and unwritten rules after getting whupped by 9 runs in an embarrassing managed game
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16 hours ago, FoxForce2 said:

I find your logic rather bizarre. White Sox SOS in 2021 -28th in MLB- and you're arguing that this is irrelevant regarding the Sox 93 wins and dominance of the AL Central? 
Good luck with that. 

So, you bring up strength of schedule, someone counters with Braves an 88 win team in a bad division that had a worse strength of schedule than the sox, and you say "well at least they were chased by the Phillies", the 82-80 Phillies. The 80-82 Cleveland team "chased" the sox in that case, the sox just unfortunately won 5 more games and did it early enough not to get the extra credit I guess.

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3 hours ago, bmags said:

So, you bring up strength of schedule, someone counters with Braves an 88 win team in a bad division that had a worse strength of schedule than the sox, and you say "well at least they were chased by the Phillies", the 82-80 Phillies. The 80-82 Cleveland team "chased" the sox in that case, the sox just unfortunately won 5 more games and did it early enough not to get the extra credit I guess.

Respectively the Phillies and Braves were ranked 8/9 in MLB end of year SOS. That, considering that they had the Marlins and Mets in their division. And yes, both the Braves and Phils made something like late season surges that the Spiders errr Guardians couldn't and didn't make. The Indians were without their top three starters for most of the season and for all practical purposes tanked the year with an eye on the future. Had the Sox played even upper half level of SOS, I have my doubts whether or not they (we) would have even broken 90 wins. Especially, considering the state of our starters in the second half.
Iron sharpens iron. Even if it is just the Braves vs Phillies. Kudos to the Braves for making the smart in-season personnel moves and surging when it counts - Last Man Standing. Were the Sox in the AL East this year - the idea of making a WC would be a dicey proposition.

Edited by FoxForce2

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4 hours ago, FoxForce2 said:

Respectively the Phillies and Braves were ranked 8/9 in MLB end of year SOS. That, considering that they had the Marlins and Mets in their division. And yes, both the Braves and Phils made something like late season surges that the Spiders errr Guardians couldn't and didn't make. The Indians were without their top three starters for most of the season and for all practical purposes tanked the year with an eye on the future. Had the Sox played even upper half level of SOS, I have my doubts whether or not they (we) would have even broken 90 wins. Especially, considering the state of our starters in the second half.
Iron sharpens iron. Even if it is just the Braves vs Phillies. Kudos to the Braves for making the smart in-season personnel moves and surging when it counts - Last Man Standing. Were the Sox in the AL East this year - the idea of making a WC would be a dicey proposition.

The Sox were 27-29 vs teams over 500 (48.2% wp)

Braves were 31-37 vs .500 teams (45.5% wp)

Let's assume the Sox played 12 more games vs 500 teams at the exact same win% that they had. 

They'd have gone 5.7 and 6.3. I'll round down just to make your point happy. 5-7

The Sox were 66-40 vs teams with losing records (63% wp)

Over 12 games that's 7 wins and 5 losses. So if the Sox played 12 more winning teams and we rounded down their win % to make you happy, they'd have finished the season 

91-73. Still 3 more wins than the Braves who are now in the world series.

SOS in baseball is almost completely meaningless as the difference, as i showed above, is 1-3 wins. Not the 10+ wins fans want to claim.

If the Braves were in the AL, they wouldn't have made the playoffs in the WC or a single division, see how stupid those what ifs are?

Edit: and if we want to discuss expected outcomes, we should be accounting for the Sox expected record and then deviating from there. The sox expected win total was 97.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Sox were 27-29 vs teams over 500 (48.2% wp)

Braves were 31-37 vs .500 teams (45.5% wp)

Let's assume the Sox played 12 more games vs 500 teams at the exact same win% that they had. 

They'd have gone 5.7 and 6.3. I'll round down just to make your point happy. 5-7

The Sox were 66-40 vs teams with losing records (63% wp)

Over 12 games that's 7 wins and 5 losses. So if the Sox played 12 more winning teams and we rounded down their win % to make you happy, they'd have finished the season 

91-73. Still 3 more wins than the Braves who are now in the world series.

SOS in baseball is almost completely meaningless as the difference, as i showed above, is 1-3 wins. Not the 10+ wins fans want to claim.

Two things can be true at once. 

The Braves have gotten incredibly hot at the right time. We've seen that happen before, and it will happen again. That's great for the Braves, it's made a great story.

The team they are playing in the World Series has been the absolute class of the AL for the last 5-6 years and it's not luck or coincidence that has gotten them to 5 straight ALCS appearances (cheating however, has played a role lol) 

Yes, getting hot and "luck" can and do play a role in the playoffs. But the idea of just building a playoff team and hoping for the right breaks to happen to your team once you make the dance is short-sighted and lacks an understanding of the game. 

The Sox have shown us in back to back seasons that at this point, they have not reached the "elite" level of teams of which there are only a select few. Does that mean they couldn't still win a World Series with his collection of players? No...they absolutely could. But there are absolutely improvements they can make that will help their chances in October. 

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10 minutes ago, Tony said:

Two things can be true at once. 

The Braves have gotten incredibly hot at the right time. We've seen that happen before, and it will happen again. That's great for the Braves, it's made a great story.

The team they are playing in the World Series has been the absolute class of the AL for the last 5-6 years and it's not luck or coincidence that has gotten them to 5 straight ALCS appearances (cheating however, has played a role lol) 

Yes, getting hot and "luck" can and do play a role in the playoffs. But the idea of just building a playoff team and hoping for the right breaks to happen to your team once you make the dance is short-sighted and lacks an understanding of the game. 

The Sox have shown us in back to back seasons that at this point, they have not reached the "elite" level of teams of which there are only a select few. Does that mean they couldn't still win a World Series with his collection of players? No...they absolutely could. But there are absolutely improvements they can make that will help their chances in October. 

The astros were very good, no argument from me... but they were very good because they have a staff that maximizes their talent. WAR is not the only thing that matters but its a pretty good indicator of talent levels. The sox had a higher team WAR than the stros despite all the injuries. The pitching failed in the playoffs and that happens sometimes. 

There Is not some large talent gap between the two teams, but there is a data and execution gap that the Sox should want to close. The sox have so much talent they could face the astros next year and sweep them and I wouldn't be surprised. 

The problem the sox face is when the talent gap is tight and closer, the little things can have a much greater impact. We saw that. The sox should acquire more talent and maybe, if they do, they won't have to overcome the leadership shortcomings because they'll be that much more talented. In small samples anything can happen, and we see that time and time again, but being really talented and executing/placing guys in optimal positions to succeed gives you a better chance.. but heck, look at the rays as an example that that alone doesn't guarantee anything  either. 

The more times you go dancing the more likely you are to get laid at least once afterwards... but it doesn't hurt to improve your odds everytime by executing better on the dance floor.

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On 10/24/2021 at 12:17 PM, Soxsi75 said:

You're right. I agree with you and actually always have. I expressed myself poorly if it seems like I was trying to say something different. But this White Sox team hasn't had the chance to get that sustained success yet. The rebuilding we've done is just the last couple of years bearing fruit. What inspired my original post was how thoroughly barbecued the White Sox were on here for losing a playoff series, to an excellent team mind you, as you stated yourself as being one of the teams who have had sustained success. And yet, even a sustained success team like the Dodgers also lost in the playoffs this year and therefore didn't accomplish any more than we did.  Just like every other team will except one.  But we are on the right track. But all I heard on here was bullshit like, "this organization sucks. We haven't won a playoff series in 16 years." Or, stupid ass things like we need to get rid of Abreu or Jimenez because they're too much alike. Maybe this team will provide that long term success? They're built to with having many of our key players signed for a few years. If we go 79-83 next year, then I'll admit I'm wrong. 

If they did not win 100 games playing in the ALC I doubt they are ready for playoff success. You also need guys who will rise to the occasion.

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The Astros and Dodgers who have owned the last 5-6 years have done a good job of balancing their team to be able to counter any one trend. They have guys that throw hard, they have guys that throw all offspeed. They have power, they hit for contact. 

In 2015, the astros stormed to a WC birth behind the cy young Keuchel season. 

In 2016, they either re-signed or re-added that with Jason Castro, Colby Rasmus, Luis Valbuena and Carlos Gomez. Castro had years of high obp, but had 30% Krates. Rasmus K'd 30% of the time. Gomez was not always that bad Krate wise but under astros was 30% krate. Valbuena high 20s.

They had a powerful lineup that could not make enough contact. They didn't run from power, but that year signed McCann, Carlos Beltran, Josh Reddick, Nori Aoki and Yuli Gurriel.

McCann with a 15% career K-rate
Beltran with a career 17% krate (and wasn't good with Astros)
Reddick with a career 16% krate
Aoki with a 12% k-rate (again, not a great player)

The previous year, signed 32 year old Yuli Gurriel out of Cuba who has had a career of 12% k-rate. 

Obviously, 2017 cheating, fun stuff, I've tried to bring in their pre-acquisition historicals or overall career. 

The sox could have had a path where the team they put together had all the right trends that year in route to a world series, and may have not been able to keep that level again. The cubs are a great success story, but I think people think of that. The nationals had years of talented teams that couldn't find right balance.

So I think the things we are pointing the sox to improve are important, and the lack of power the sox showed in the playoffs would have not been as big of a deal had we had more players who could be more likely to make contact (sequencing improvement) but especially contact not in the ground (gb rate), and better odds vs LHP. 

But, what I think is dumb is thrashing against the good players that the sox have just because they didn't carry over the series. Or looking for things that show they weren't as good as we thought. 

Raising your sight from winning a division to winning the world series is exciting and discouraging when you realize there was farther to go, and still can make mistakes. But this team is good, could do more things to shore up weaknesses but that needs to happen while protecting strengths. And needs luck. Like the sox had to face the astros dominant McCullers twice, the braves/red sox didn't. He was particularly fucking ridiculous vs. us.

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10 minutes ago, pcq said:

If they did not win 100 games playing in the ALC I doubt they are ready for playoff success. You also need guys who will rise to the occasion.

This is silly. The White Sox just have to play better in October.it doesn't matter how many games the win the ALC by. BTW, Houston was 19-16 vs the ALC. Lost the season series to KC, DET and MiN. How did they make the WS? 

The problem was despite being reasonably hot at the end of the regular season, they just didn't have it vs Houston.  A play here, a play there, maybe a different story, but the starting pitching was awful. The offense wasn't there except for 1 game. 

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19 hours ago, Flash said:

Fans are entitled to blog their opinions on how to improve their favorite teams without 9 paragraphs of rightious rambling on how we should be grateful (I think that is your point) for the early exit because 'the playoffs are a crapshoot boys and girls'.  I give you an A for word count though.   

As I'm entitled to mine. Which is why I started the post. Oh and by the way, yeah we should be grateful for the season we had. And the playoffs are a crapshoot. Hey, I kept this post shorter!!

Edited by Soxsi75
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3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

 

SOS in baseball is almost completely meaningless as the difference, as i showed above, is 1-3 wins. Not the 10+ wins fans want to claim.

If the Braves were in the AL, they wouldn't have made the playoffs in the WC or a single division, see how stupid those what ifs are?

Edit: and if we want to discuss expected outcomes, we should be accounting for the Sox expected record and then deviating from there. The sox expected win total was 97.

You've shown little more than creative accounting re: flipping numbers to support a flawed POV. Can you spell r-a-t-i-o-n-a-l-i-z-a-t-i-o-n? How about s-t-r-a-w-m-a-n? Simply put, I haven't been making much of a comparison at all between the Sox and the Braves. Different teams, different leagues, different situations. And yes - I do think the Braves made better mid-season personnel moves than the Sox did. The result of an organization having a winning tradition and culture vs a team just getting its feet wet in this whole Playoff Pool thing. When it comes to a winning track record - The White Sox are green.
SOS has, maybe, even more meaning in baseball than other sports when looking at splits isolated out of an entire season and represents dynamical analysis more appropriately than you give credit for.  Are you acquainted with the term statistics independent dynamical analysis?
In any case, there is often a true bottom line in matters such as this and in my case, this line is represented by an additional 4 figures appearing in my betting account when I bet on the favorite Astros over my 'home team' Sox (I haven't lived in Chicago since 1968.)  I'm an infrequent bettor but do listen to the rumblings around Vegas on various sports topics. There was very little kool aid being dispensed regarding the Sox' chances and I didn't drink any. The Sox were at least somewhat over-rated coming into the Playoffs and it would have taken a Pulp Fiction miracle to have gotten them past the Stros. That would be the kind of miracle that the Braves got in their Playoff run this year. A Braves team I wouldn't have dreamed of betting on (Series appearance) even in mid September - or now for that matter.
I'm happy now. Think I'll pop a top on a cold Goose Island.
 

Edited by FoxForce2

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12 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

You've shown little more than creative accounting re: flipping numbers to support a flawed POV. Can you spell r-a-t-i-o-n-a-l-i-z-a-t-i-o-n? How about s-t-r-a-w-m-a-n? Simply put, I haven't been making much of a comparison at all between the Sox and the Braves. Different teams, different leagues, different situations. And yes - I do think the Braves made better mid-season personnel moves than the Sox did. The result of an organization having a winning tradition and culture vs a team just getting its feet wet in this whole Playoff Pool thing. When it comes to a winning the track record - The White Sox are green.
SOS has, maybe, even more meaning in baseball than other sports when looking at splits isolated out of an entire season and represents dynamical analysis more appropriately than you give credit for.  Are you acquainted with the term statistics independent dynamical analysis?
In any case, there is often a true bottom line in matters such as this and in my case, this line is represented by an additional 4 figures appearing in my betting account when I bet on the favorite Astros over my 'home team' Sox (I haven't lived in Chicago since 1968.)  I'm an infrequent bettor but do listen to the rumblings around Vegas on various sports topics. There was very little kool aid being dispensed regarding the Sox' chances and I didn't drink any. The Sox were at least somewhat over-rated coming into the Playoffs and it would have taken a Pulp Fiction miracle to have gotten them past the Stros. That would be the kind of miracle that the Braves got in their Playoff run this year. A Braves team I wouldn't have dreamed of betting on (Series appearance) even in mid September - or now for that matter.
I'm happy now. Think I'll pop a top on a cold Goose Island.
 

Cool story.

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5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The astros were very good, no argument from me... but they were very good because they have a staff that maximizes their talent. WAR is not the only thing that matters but its a pretty good indicator of talent levels. The sox had a higher team WAR than the stros despite all the injuries. The pitching failed in the playoffs and that happens sometimes. 

There Is not some large talent gap between the two teams, but there is a data and execution gap that the Sox should want to close. The sox have so much talent they could face the astros next year and sweep them and I wouldn't be surprised. 

The problem the sox face is when the talent gap is tight and closer, the little things can have a much greater impact. We saw that. The sox should acquire more talent and maybe, if they do, they won't have to overcome the leadership shortcomings because they'll be that much more talented. In small samples anything can happen, and we see that time and time again, but being really talented and executing/placing guys in optimal positions to succeed gives you a better chance.. but heck, look at the rays as an example that that alone doesn't guarantee anything  either. 

The more times you go dancing the more likely you are to get laid at least once afterwards... but it doesn't hurt to improve your odds everytime by executing better on the dance floor.

Now thats a colorful analogy 😁

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Can we use foreign substances, a sign stealing scheme, and banned watches while replaying this post season?

/joking

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5 hours ago, Soxsi75 said:

As I'm entitled to mine. Which is why I started the post. Oh and by the way, yeah we should be grateful for the season we had. And the playoffs are a crapshoot. Hey, I kept this post shorter!!

Well done Soxsi!

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