The MLB lockout is lifted!

[bmags]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

That's an oddly specific period of time.  Why 2.5 months?  The season doesn't start for 5 months.  Spring training starts in about 3+.  Why 2.5 months?

Well, that was the prediction right? Mid Jan would be an unconvincing deadline, but perhaps that would be realistic for a "if past this date, ST is compromised" for staffing stuff. 

[southsider2k5]

 

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, bmags said:

Well, that was the prediction right? Mid Jan would be an unconvincing deadline, but perhaps that would be realistic for a "if past this date, ST is compromised" for staffing stuff. 

No way that’s the spring training deadline. They pulled it off way faster in 2020.

a deal mid June and half the season lost would be a more plausible result of “bad as ever”.

[Jack Parkman]

 

[South Side Hit Men]

6 hours ago, bmags said:

I'd actually like to know from those that were a bit older on that 94 front.

After 2020's very antagonistic negotiations, I figured this would be a very tough CBA that would likely lead to a delay in the season and we all joked about it wiping out a white sox world series team.

I have been surprised how muted the CBA negotiations have been so far.

Should we expect more lines in the sand to develop in december that let us know how serious this will be, or has the relatively ho-hum response so far a good sign? What was it like in the lead-up to 94? Did it seem like it would resolve then just devolved quickly?

It felt like in 2012 nba and some recent nfl lockouts, we all just knew it was coming pretty early on. It feels like things have cooled down a bit on the mlb front.

Am I being too optimistic?

I am much more optimistic there will be a 2022 season (120 - 162 games) than I was in 1994-1995, primarily because Jerry was the hardliner pulling Selig’s strings, who preferred the scorched earth negotiating policy last time around. Jerry no longer holds sway over the sport.

First he lost in court after Sonia Sotomayor rejected the owners scheme to use scab players. Then, Owners had enough of Jerry’s antics, and Jerry lost the vote to ratify an agreement 26-4, while being rebuked and humiliated in the process.

Quote

"Jerry, we've listened to you for four years. You've been on every committee and you've been wrong every time you've told us we had to do something. It's time for you to stop talking and get out of the way."

-Larry Lucchino

Jerry has not held sway since, including being the lone owner to oppose Manfred on the search committee to replace Selig. Jerry did not oppose Manfred because Manfred is a clown, but rather because Jerry felt Manfred would be insufficiently anti-player/union in future CBA negotiations.

Owners will fight tooth and nail, but there is no evidence they are looking to kill the MLBPA and sport in the process, as they were led by Jerry/Bud in the mid-1990s.

[southsider2k5]

 

[Texsox]

10 hours ago, Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm said:

I was 17. And I didn't watch baseball again until 2000. 

I know I felt cheated. 

[South Side Hit Men]

8 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

That's an oddly specific period of time.  Why 2.5 months?  The season doesn't start for 5 months.  Spring training starts in about 3+.  Why 2.5 months?

Games start in close to 3, but players report a few weeks prior. There are significant financial penalties due from owners to ST facilities in the event the full ST schedule is not conducted / honored due to an owner lockout.

Solid free podcast with an introduction to the basic issues confronting the negotiations by Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich below. Glad to have a subscription to one of the few independent media sources still in existence.

 

[lostfan]

Probably as good a place as any to put this - Boras is objectively good at his job, but every time he speaks on something outside of that lane I wish he'd shut up. The Braves lost one of the best players in the game, they did good at the trade deadline, they got hot and played lights out in the playoffs, no mystery there. They've also made the playoffs 4 years in a row and he's talking about them like they're some moribound franchise

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

11 hours ago, bmags said:

I'd actually like to know from those that were a bit older on that 94 front.

After 2020's very antagonistic negotiations, I figured this would be a very tough CBA that would likely lead to a delay in the season and we all joked about it wiping out a white sox world series team.

I have been surprised how muted the CBA negotiations have been so far.

Should we expect more lines in the sand to develop in december that let us know how serious this will be, or has the relatively ho-hum response so far a good sign? What was it like in the lead-up to 94? Did it seem like it would resolve then just devolved quickly?

It felt like in 2012 nba and some recent nfl lockouts, we all just knew it was coming pretty early on. It feels like things have cooled down a bit on the mlb front.

Am I being too optimistic?

Being one of the older guys I don't think you're being pessimistic at all. Of course I would say that because It's been my biggest fan fear since they started the rebuild and then Covid came along.  I've been predicting the disaster scenario of over a year that Covid and a work stoppage and the owner and front office not being able to finish what they started with built in excuses. I've basically called it "Sox Gonna Sox" which just means they have been one of the worst franchises in baseball throughout their history and and I really haven't seen that much lately that encourages me.

Of course lots of people have hope that Jerry and Rick H.  can pull a Championship out of this mess but I've seen this coming for a while. Now it doesn't make me enjoy following the Sox any less. To me it's just a game by game experience and I tend not to get upset at final results because if that's the case it's pretty discouraging to think of 1 championship in 100 years.

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, lostfan said:

Probably as good a place as any to put this - Boras is objectively good at his job, but every time he speaks on something outside of that lane I wish he'd shut up. The Braves lost one of the best players in the game, they did good at the trade deadline, they got hot and played lights out in the playoffs, no mystery there. They've also made the playoffs 4 years in a row and he's talking about them like they're some moribound franchise

The irony of course being that the teams that spent the most to "compete" all got bounced early.

[lostfan]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The irony of course being that the teams that spent the most to "compete" all got bounced early.

Yup and the Braves straight up beat the Dodgers head-on so... not even sure what he's talking about here.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, lostfan said:

Yup and the Braves straight up beat the Dodgers head-on so... not even sure what he's talking about here.

That the players the Braves got were only available because so many teams like the Royals had thrown in the towel before the season started. That the teams really trying to win are being screwed over by teams taking shortcuts like the Braves.

[lostfan]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

That the players the Braves got were only available because so many teams like the Royals had thrown in the towel before the season started. That the teams really trying to win are being screwed over by teams taking shortcuts like the Braves.

I actually read this story elsewhere after seeing that tweet - that tweet is not a good summary of the issue he was talking about at all because it is framed like he's faulting the Braves somehow.

This being Boras though, he's talking about big-market teams spending more money (he doesn't have to say it out loud, it's always implied). I do think that there are some teams that are not even trying to win while they're just cashing checks, and that does affect the competitive balance of the game, but I also don't think his focus here on draft spending limits is going to fix that.

[South Side Hit Men]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

That the players the Braves got were only available because so many teams like the Royals had thrown in the towel before the season started. That the teams really trying to win are being screwed over by teams taking shortcuts like the Braves.

QFT.

Boras is right, usually is. Wish he was battling the owners instead of Tony Clark.

Every single word is true, though most here will instantly oppose it because Boras spoke the truth.

 

Quote

 

In effect, the integrity of the 2021 season changed because it was a race to the bottom to get draft picks for many, many teams to unload payroll and not in any way respecting the integrity of divisional races and/or the dynamic of what a world championship should mean,” Boras said.

“You must make competitive requirements of winning so every team has a reason to win every game,” he added. “We have seen a noncompetitive cancer occur as a result of a bargaining change. It’s not good for the game. It’s not how our game should be played.”

 

 

[lostfan]

6 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

QFT.

Boras is right, usually is. Wish he was battling the owners instead of Tony Clark.

Every single word is true, though most here will instantly oppose it because Boras spoke the truth.

 

 

He's absolutely right about what the problem is here (as I said in my post above I didn't read his full comments in proper context until after I posted that tweet, which is a poor summary)

I miss the old Deadspin, they were all over how full of shit MLB management is

[NWINFan]

I have not kept up on the particulars so I really don't know what the owners hope to achieve. At the very least, they shouldn't underestimate the players' union. Very few will allow themselves to be used as scabs, and we all know how damaging a long strike will be. Again I will say the White Sox will be one of the teams largely hurt by this, and I don't appreciate the irony of that. 

[Balta1701]

27 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

I have not kept up on the particulars so I really don't know what the owners hope to achieve. At the very least, they shouldn't underestimate the players' union. Very few will allow themselves to be used as scabs, and we all know how damaging a long strike will be. Again I will say the White Sox will be one of the teams largely hurt by this, and I don't appreciate the irony of that. 

The owners have had enormous success during this CBA. They restricted player salaries and were able to grow the amount of money going to the owners by something like a billion dollars a year or more (outside of COVID weirdness). The owners want the status quo, effectively. The big proposal they gave publicly would have added a minimum payroll but made the  luxury tax level way lower (creating more  shared dollars in tax penalties), changing the way the offseason works but basically leaving the revenue breakdown as-is and limiting payroll growth for the entire next CBA. They would be happy with new revenue streams from more playoff games, but they do not want to give back to the players what they gained this round.

This issue is why these two sides will take this into a fight. It has gotten out of balance in favor of owner revenue, the owners will not give that up without a fight and the players won’t agree to a new normal without a fight.

[Big Hurtin]

22 hours ago, bmags said:

well...this was more what I expected:

 

[CentralChamps21]

20 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

 

Sounds like a deal gets made on February 15.

[BrittBurnsFan]

1 minute ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Sounds like a deal gets made on February 15.

Hope so!  I know none of us know the outcome obviously...but I wonder if any of the changes to the MLB structure/relationship will be major?  The DH being added to the NL would be major in my opinion...any others?

[Eminor3rd]

On 11/1/2021 at 7:19 AM, Texsox said:

@South Side Hit MenSo while you wring your hands over the fate of millionaire players who would easily cross the picket lines of the plumber’s union to get their gold plated toilets unstuck from all their shit, I’ll worry about the concession workers, car lot attendants, local businesses and everyone else who actually works for a living and truly suffers with a work stoppage. Bring on scab baseball. Let some cop, or teacher, insurance agent, put on the uniform and step into a pro locker room. I’ll side with thousandaires struggling to pay the rent and put food on the table, you take the millionaires. 
 

Your support during the strike, and $10, will get their autograph of thanks. 

I just want to say thanks for considering this perspective.

[Jack Parkman]

40 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

I just want to say thanks for considering this perspective.

Yeah, same here. 

Those people really get screwed and they should get paid more too. 

[South Side Hit Men]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yeah, same here. 

Those people really get screwed and they should get paid more too. 

Those people are being "screwed" by the "stewards of the game", i.e. the owners, not baseball players.

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Those people are being "screwed" by the "stewards of the game", i.e. the owners, not baseball players.

 

Agreed. 

If the owners can't make money paying their employees fairly(players, minor leaguers, concession workers, you name it)  then it's their business model that is the problem. 

This goes for any business. If your business model requires shameless exploitaton of your workforce, then it's the business model that is the problem. 

Minor leaguers and other ancillary baseball workers should unionize. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Jack Parkman