southsider2k5 Posted December 11, 2021 Author Share Posted December 11, 2021 54 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: So they signed one international player and that means they never have to work at it again, cigars and money are the way now? No, I fully expected you to put this in the worst possible light and ignore the actual superstar we got out of the international market. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: No, I fully expected you to put this in the worst possible light and ignore the actual superstar we got out of the international market. And we lost to a team that got Altuve, Urquidy, Garcia, Valdez, and Javier out of the international market. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: And we lost to a team that got Altuve, Urquidy, Garcia, Valdez, and Javier out of the international market. Yes, but you can't play that game anymore. I will give you there is no reason the Sox didn't spend their international allotment especially during a rebuild. But the bonus pools were music to JRs ears, and it isn't as easy building that way anymore. And the other thing is that team has won once. And it was under a huge cloud . There is no guaranteed way. I am not holding water for JR. 41 seasons and has only won a playoff series in 1 of those 41. Edited December 11, 2021 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Yes, but you can't play that game anymore. I will give you there is no reason the Sox didn't spend their international allotment especially during a rebuild. But the bonus pools were music to JRs ears, and it isn't as easy building that way anymore. And the other thing is that team has won once. And it was under a huge cloud . There is no guaranteed way. I am not holding water for JR. 41 seasons and has only won a playoff series in 1 of those 41. But here is my problem - you can’t just say “I don’t care about the system as long as the team is winning” because the system remains the lifeblood of the team. How are the Astros still on top? They’re bringing up guys like Tucker, Valdez, Garcia, and Urquidy to contribute as guys like Correa and Springer hit free agency and leave. Those guys who beat us are why they can put together their roster. That’s why they can afford to keep a Verlander or take on the contract of a Greinke. Contrast that with the White Sox - who wanted to add a major piece at the deadline, and forgetting about all the scouting failures for a bit, what did they have to do for that trade? Their system had nothing people wanted again, so they had to package their 2022 second baseman and a 2022 reliever, leaving 2 holes. What is the end result of that? They had to spend $8 million a year on Graveman, and they’re now $14 million from the previous luxury tax line with holes in RF and at 2b, and they could also use starting pitching help. They didn’t have guys to replace what they traded away, and now they’re trying to clear money to be able to put big leaguers into those 3 positions on a budget. Eventually, that format - more holes open, less money to spend - is how you get a roster where Jimmy Rollins, Austin Jackson, Brett Laurie, and Mat Latos are major pieces to start the year, because you have too many positions to fill, no talent coming up from the minors to fill holes cheaply, and not enough to spend. So yes, the draft picks still matter and there international signings still matter. It gets even harder next year, and then after 2023 Giolito and Lynn are both free agents. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: But here is my problem - you can’t just say “I don’t care about the system as long as the team is winning” because the system remains the lifeblood of the team. How are the Astros still on top? They’re bringing up guys like Tucker, Valdez, Garcia, and Urquidy to contribute as guys like Correa and Springer hit free agency and leave. Those guys who beat us are why they can put together their roster. That’s why they can afford to keep a Verlander or take on the contract of a Greinke. Contrast that with the White Sox - who wanted to add a major piece at the deadline, and forgetting about all the scouting failures for a bit, what did they have to do for that trade? Their system had nothing people wanted again, so they had to package their 2022 second baseman and a 2022 reliever, leaving 2 holes. What is the end result of that? They had to spend $8 million a year on Graveman, and they’re now $14 million from the previous luxury tax line with holes in RF and at 2b, and they could also use starting pitching help. They didn’t have guys to replace what they traded away, and now they’re trying to clear money to be able to put big leaguers into those 3 positions on a budget. Eventually, that format - more holes open, less money to spend - is how you get a roster where Jimmy Rollins, Austin Jackson, Brett Laurie, and Mat Latos are major pieces to start the year, because you have too many positions to fill, no talent coming up from the minors to fill holes cheaply, and not enough to spend. So yes, the draft picks still matter and there international signings still matter. It gets even harder next year, and then after 2023 Giolito and Lynn are both free agents. The Astros farm is currently ranked right with the Sox. So their window must be closed. I just looked at a 2017 farm ranking list. The Orioles were one spot higher than the Blue Jay's. Go figure. All it takes is one or two guys breaking out and the farm is in good shape. The Sox don't have a lot of holes. One thing that would help is if they could develop some reliable relievers. Everyone frets how Cleveland develops pitchers. They haven't had a 1st round pitcher make the majors since the 2000s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Balta1701 said: And they realized something was amiss with Aiken and magically turned him into Bregman. I would also say that “no first draft pick has made the big leagues since 2016” is a helluva BS way to point things out given the last year and a half. The 2019 number 1 pick was a catcher (who tend to need extra time), he’s now the #1 prospect in baseball by MLB.com. The 2017 number 1 pick was a top 10 prospect at one point, is only 22 years old, and is down right now from a major injury. 2018 made it this year. And oh yeah…none of them played any baseball in 2020 because of a virus! Almost equally important was flipping another higher pick, Daz Cameron and pieces, for Verlander. And then how they got their hands on Yordan Alvarez, yet another huge piece of the puzzle. Edited December 12, 2021 by caulfield12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: The Astros farm is currently ranked right with the Sox. So their window must be closed. I just looked at a 2017 farm ranking list. The Orioles were one spot higher than the Blue Jay's. Go figure. All it takes is one or two guys breaking out and the farm is in good shape. The Sox don't have a lot of holes. One thing that would help is if they could develop some reliable relievers. Everyone frets how Cleveland develops pitchers. They haven't had a 1st round pitcher make the majors since the 2000s. Wouldn’t it be much wiser to double or triple the contracts for all those identifying and developing the young Cleveland pitchers and recruit them to the White Sox organization? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 12, 2021 Author Share Posted December 12, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If this goes right near the beginning of spring training, the middle class is going to be squeezed big time with signing frenzies usually geared toward big names and cheap signings. If I am a player, I would want this finished with ample time to get players signed before spring training begins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 20 hours ago, Balta1701 said: But here is my problem - you can’t just say “I don’t care about the system as long as the team is winning” because the system remains the lifeblood of the team. How are the Astros still on top? They’re bringing up guys like Tucker, Valdez, Garcia, and Urquidy to contribute as guys like Correa and Springer hit free agency and leave. Those guys who beat us are why they can put together their roster. That’s why they can afford to keep a Verlander or take on the contract of a Greinke. Contrast that with the White Sox - who wanted to add a major piece at the deadline, and forgetting about all the scouting failures for a bit, what did they have to do for that trade? Their system had nothing people wanted again, so they had to package their 2022 second baseman and a 2022 reliever, leaving 2 holes. What is the end result of that? They had to spend $8 million a year on Graveman, and they’re now $14 million from the previous luxury tax line with holes in RF and at 2b, and they could also use starting pitching help. They didn’t have guys to replace what they traded away, and now they’re trying to clear money to be able to put big leaguers into those 3 positions on a budget. Eventually, that format - more holes open, less money to spend - is how you get a roster where Jimmy Rollins, Austin Jackson, Brett Laurie, and Mat Latos are major pieces to start the year, because you have too many positions to fill, no talent coming up from the minors to fill holes cheaply, and not enough to spend. So yes, the draft picks still matter and there international signings still matter. It gets even harder next year, and then after 2023 Giolito and Lynn are both free agents. They have the money to spend. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: As soon as players are earning more we'll have a better team. This team is loaded with cash and an ownership group that isn't afraid to spend it. Low wages help teams like the Astros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeaseAndExist Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 36 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Both sides suck. Owners are billionaires and the MLBPA rejects every core principle of the NBA, NFL, and NHL CBAs. Amazing that people making $50k/yr could "cheer" for anyone in this 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 10 hours ago, CeaseAndExist said: Both sides suck. Owners are billionaires and the MLBPA rejects every core principle of the NBA, NFL, and NHL CBAs. Amazing that people making $50k/yr could "cheer" for anyone in this When elephants fight it's the grass that gets trampled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 38 minutes ago, Texsox said: When elephants fight it's the grass that gets trampled. Except one of the elephants is this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 On 12/12/2021 at 12:23 PM, southsider2k5 said: They should be tweaking the numbers to reflect a more even distribution of revenue. After the Covid disruption fans do not want any more interruptions to the games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 The First Spring Training home game is scheduled for February 26th. If they are not talking about the important issues until January we will be lucky to have a deal by February 1st. FA signing period when it reopens will be a pure madhouse. If a deal is not reached by February 1st...lots of mid-tier type players will be very unhappy with their union reps IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 24 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: As dumb as it sounds, I really wish there was some sort of fan union to get these assholes to start actually negotiations. Like no agreement in place by Jan 15th, then a large group of fans agree to sit out a portion of the season. I know it’s not feasibly possible, but it’s absolutely disgusting these fucks aren’t even talking right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 38 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: As dumb as it sounds, I really wish there was some sort of fan union to get these assholes to start actually negotiations. Like no agreement in place by Jan 15th, then a large group of fans agree to sit out a portion of the season. I know it’s not feasibly possible, but it’s absolutely disgusting these fucks aren’t even talking right now. Well, the owners definitely have an idea how much it's already impact season ticket sales/deposits as well as promotional nights/sponsorships/giveaways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 43 minutes ago, poppysox said: The First Spring Training home game is scheduled for February 26th. If they are not talking about the important issues until January we will be lucky to have a deal by February 1st. FA signing period when it reopens will be a pure madhouse. If a deal is not reached by February 1st...lots of mid-tier type players will be very unhappy with their union reps IMO. Ok Mr. Chairman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Ok Mr. Chairman. Just stating a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 They're going to have to prioritize somewhere. It's going to be getting the younger players higher salaries and/or earlier free agency or veterans that are at risk of being pushed out of the game because of the overall affordability of much younger replacements...but it seems the only thing that would really help the mid-tier veterans would be the institution of salary floors. That said, more and more teams could continue the trend of going towards those early-career (or at least in mid 20's) extensions that we've seen the last 5 years with many White Sox players and Sale/Eaton/Q in the past...another form of redistribution from older to younger/youngish players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 1 hour ago, poppysox said: Just stating a fact. I have every confidence that the chairman is saying the same thing right now, that all the owners have to do is hold out long enough and the players will crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I have every confidence that the chairman is saying the same thing right now, that all the owners have to do is hold out long enough and the players will crack. He would probably be correct. Do you think players like Leury want to take half a year off? I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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