Texsox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 Of the attempts at starting sports leagues all failed financially, not because of a lack of competitive teams. Job #1 of the league is to have financially sound teams. Having teams fail on the field isn't nearly as big a problem as having teams fail financially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 minute ago, Texsox said: Of the attempts at starting sports leagues all failed financially, not because of a lack of competitive teams. Job #1 of the league is to have financially sound teams. Having teams fail on the field isn't nearly as big a problem as having teams fail financially. Good point to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 25 minutes ago, poppysox said: Like most things in life, you have owners from both positions I would imagine. The majority of owners have been winners in life so I suspect they consider winning games the object of playing the game. Most of these owners can make money in just about anything they touch so baseball is more a hobby than a business with most of them. JR being a baseball nut since childhood is a well-documented fact. For the most part...the teams spending the most money are the teams in the largest markets. Baseball...in my view has over-expanded and more or less set up some teams to fail. Surprisingly, some teams like Tampa and Minnesota have frequently succeeded in spite of being economically disadvantaged. Pretty obvious that some teams have really good people in the FO. If winnings games is more important, why are we locked out in a stalemate going nowhere? Does ownership's unilateral refusal to reconsider the economic balance of their massive windfalls since the last CBA sort of contradict your theory that most prefer to win games as their first priority? The owners initiated the lockout and have refused to negotiate for 5 weeks. That fact alone makes it difficult for me to believe that ownership cares one bit about the health and well-being of the game first, or in any way think it is a higher priority than protecting their profits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 29 minutes ago, Texsox said: Of the attempts at starting sports leagues all failed financially, not because of a lack of competitive teams. Job #1 of the league is to have financially sound teams. Having teams fail on the field isn't nearly as big a problem as having teams fail financially. This is a valid point. But of those failed sports leagues, how many of them had to compete with an already existing and flourishing league in the same sport? And are any MLB teams really financially insolvent or at risk of failing in the current landscape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: If winnings games is more important, why are we locked out in a stalemate going nowhere? Does ownership's unilateral refusal to reconsider the economic balance of their massive windfalls since the last CBA sort of contradict your theory that most prefer to win games as their first priority? The owners initiated the lockout and have refused to negotiate for 5 weeks. That fact alone makes it difficult for me to believe that ownership cares one bit about the health and well-being of the game first, or in any way think it is a higher priority than protecting their profits. The health of the game is financial. Teams have to remain profitable. That's how every business in America remains healthy. Neither side really has competitiveness and winning as a core value. Both sides are looking to profit from this negotiation. The owners wish to give up as little profit as they can and the players want to gain as much profit as they can. Only the fans care about things like winning and last I saw, they don't have a seat at the table. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 minute ago, Tnetennba said: This is a valid point. But of those failed sports leagues, how many of them had to compete with an already existing and flourishing league in the same sport? And are any MLB teams really financially insolvent or at risk of failing in the current landscape? No team that I'm aware of is in any sort of financial crisis. They are all healthy and under the current business conditions we shouldn't worry about the long term business prospects of the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, Texsox said: The health of the game is financial. Teams have to remain profitable. That's how every business in America remains healthy. Neither side really has competitiveness and winning as a core value. Both sides are looking to profit from this negotiation. The owners wish to give up as little profit as they can and the players want to gain as much profit as they can. Only the fans care about things like winning and last I saw, they don't have a seat at the table. wut 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 10 minutes ago, Texsox said: No team that I'm aware of is in any sort of financial crisis. They are all healthy and under the current business conditions we shouldn't worry about the long term business prospects of the league. Is the lockout really about the longterm business prospects of the league though? Maybe its my cynicism talking but that seems specious to me. No ulterior motives to protect profit, drive down labor costs, and or do damage to the MLBPA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 16 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: wut In these negotiations, the owners care about protecting their profits and the players care about increased earnings. They don't need a CBA to work on winning games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 17 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: Is the lockout really about the longterm business prospects of the league though? Maybe its my cynicism talking but that seems specious to me. No ulterior motives to protect profit, drive down labor costs, and or do damage to the MLBPA? For owners IMHO the long term business prospects are to protect profits, keep labor costs controllable, and if they can damage the MLBPA in the process, they will. It's all about the money. Owners have it and they don't want to give it away without a fight. Competitive balance? That comes when the elite teams can make more money with the Pirates being competitive, until then, keep cashing the checks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 5 minutes ago, Texsox said: In these negotiations, the owners care about protecting their profits and the players care about increased earnings. They don't need a CBA to work on winning games. Part of winning games is having enough payroll and having a minimum allowed payroll number seems a reasonable target IMO. It defies all odds that a team spending 40 million can compete with teams spending 5 times that amount. Yes, I know some teams have done it in spite of the odds. In any event...if that is the type of advancement the union is trying to win I can understand it. The three players interviewed by Rose stated that was the primary goal. However, any attempt to shorten the period of control teams have on their players will inevitably lead to a protracted lockout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 7 minutes ago, Texsox said: For owners IMHO the long term business prospects are to protect profits, keep labor costs controllable, and if they can damage the MLBPA in the process, they will. It's all about the money. Owners have it and they don't want to give it away without a fight. Competitive balance? That comes when the elite teams can make more money with the Pirates being competitive, until then, keep cashing the checks. Yes, which in simpler terms, is that ownership cares about profit first, and winning is far down the list of priorities. Which is the very crux of my critique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 57 minutes ago, Texsox said: In these negotiations, the owners care about protecting their profits and the players care about increased earnings. They don't need a CBA to work on winning games. The players play the game to win. They don't like being on teams that are built to lose. Their #1 priority in these negotiations is to fix a broken system that the owners are fully taking advantage of to field losing teams and maiximize profits. The players want more teams trying to win and to make the game more competitive. They want to make the game a better product......for the fans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 21 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: The players play the game to win. They don't like being on teams that are built to lose. Their #1 priority in these negotiations is to fix a broken system that the owners are fully taking advantage of to field losing teams and maiximize profits. The players want more teams trying to win and to make the game more competitive. They want to make the game a better product......for the fans. And to fix the system they are proposing items that will also increase their pay. They believe fixing the system will be accomplished by becoming free agents sooner (quicker path to a big payday) and teams being required to pay players more through changes in the luxury tax. I remember when fans complained about players, we'll use Boras' clients as an example, only caring about their paychecks and not about winning. It's nice to see that has changed. What you call their #1 priority also seems to align with what I say their #1 priority is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Tnetennba said: Yes, which in simpler terms, is that ownership cares about profit first, and winning is far down the list of priorities. Which is the very crux of my critique. Which should be balanced by a FO and players who value winning over profits. In that balance we find the franchises fans call successful. Someone in the company needs to be concerned about turning a profit. Others should be caring about market share (in this case wins) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 20 minutes ago, Texsox said: Which should be balanced by a FO and players who value winning over profits. In that balance we find the franchises fans call successful. Someone in the company needs to be concerned about turning a profit. Others should be caring about market share (in this case wins) And I personally believe more of those profits should go to the employees that make the game happen, (beyond player salaries) as opposed to lining shareholder's pockets or being syphoned off elsewhere. I'm really curious to know quantifiably what contributions owners make to the game day to day, year to year, beyond their initial dollars spent acquiring the franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 I hate that I keep coming to this site out of habit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 12, 2022 Author Share Posted January 12, 2022 I hate the lockout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: I hate the lockout. A PR announcement for bobblehead giveaways but they can't put player's names out. That is both a hilarious and sad commentary on the state of affairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 12, 2022 Author Share Posted January 12, 2022 Just now, Tnetennba said: A PR announcement for bobblehead giveaways but they can't put player's names out. That is both a hilarious and sad commentary on the state of affairs. I mean how you can you not being buying tickets for the TBD night? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 25 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: And I personally believe more of those profits should go to the employees that make the game happen, (beyond player salaries) as opposed to lining shareholder's pockets or being syphoned off elsewhere. I'm really curious to know quantifiably what contributions owners make to the game day to day, year to year, beyond their initial dollars spent acquiring the franchise. I agree 100%. I'd love to see a livable wage rule be passed for every employee. It's really about time to fix MiLB and the rest of the organization. Unfortunately the only employees with bargaining power, the MLBPA, aren't really in a position to make that happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 hours ago, Texsox said: No team that I'm aware of is in any sort of financial crisis. They are all healthy and under the current business conditions we shouldn't worry about the long term business prospects of the league. I get the feeling owners care nothing about attendance and parking and concessions. That's all gravy money. Baseball will survive covid cause of TV money period. I'd think covid concerns would ultimately kill all pro sports but apparently not. Get to the bargaining table and start spring training on time unless fans truly don't matter any more. My feeling is baseball is a game to be played on TV and $$ only made from TV and unless the TV people tell baseball to get this done there will be no progress made at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: A PR announcement for bobblehead giveaways but they can't put player's names out. That is both a hilarious and sad commentary on the state of affairs. I just want the Cane Guy Bobblehead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, Texsox said: I agree 100%. I'd love to see a livable wage rule be passed for every employee. It's really about time to fix MiLB and the rest of the organization. Unfortunately the only employees with bargaining power, the MLBPA, aren't really in a position to make that happen. 100%. I know I've argued for the players side against ownership repeatedly, but I honestly care the most about the "little guys" of the orgs, and poorly minor leaguers are compensated. Every employee from the top down deserves a livable wage and benefits, and prioritizing profit over the people that make the game happen is an injustice. And I am just fine with both sides seeing a reduction in their share to make it happen. Unfortunately that isn't the world we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said: I hate that I keep coming to this site out of habit. This sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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