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southsider2k5

Welcome to the MLB work stoppage

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8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

I can't read it as I'm not an insider, but I wonder if the use of new age statistics for evaluating players has anything to do with it. I also don't know what you define as a "middle tier free agent".

If the NBA didn't have max contracts, your superstars would get much more money and the middle of the road guys would get less. 

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11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

Reminds me of the NBA lockout.  Can't remember the name, but someone came back around 3 bills.

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3 minutes ago, Big Hurtin said:

Reminds me of the NBA lockout.  Can't remember the name, but someone came back around 3 bills.

Ha, was that Kemp?  I think that was when Patrick Ewing said something like "hey we make a lot of money, but we spend a lot of money too" lol

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55 minutes ago, ron883 said:

I can't read it as I'm not an insider, but I wonder if the use of new age statistics for evaluating players has anything to do with it. I also don't know what you define as a "middle tier free agent".

If the NBA didn't have max contracts, your superstars would get much more money and the middle of the road guys would get less. 

Median and average salaries are up around 75% while revenue is up around 180% during that same window, what's happened is top end salaries have gone up a bit but most of salary escalation has been driven by minimum increases and top end talent. That said, it's also just been that owners have pocketed a higher share of revenues than they once did since there's no guaranteed split/revenue sharing like there is in basketball and football.

This is why people talk collusion because in unison ownership stopped paying the middle class players, gave out big contracts to high end talent to say (see were giving out big money), and have decreased the share of revenue to players by possibly as much as 5-7%. This is why I've said baseball players would honestly be better off going to a cap because at least the cap forces owners to open their books and increases payrolls every year as revenue grows. As of now, a higher % of that revenue growth is just going into ownerships pockets.

Used thos comparison the other day but if you scaled the sox 2008 payroll with revenue growth in the sport and nothing else, they'd be sitting at 215 million today. 

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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59 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Ha, was that Kemp?  I think that was when Patrick Ewing said something like "hey we make a lot of money, but we spend a lot of money too" lol

2011 lockout and I think big baby got fat and boris draw grew an additional human 

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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The union better step up and get pre-arb players paid.  That is more important than every other issue combined. 

If those guys start at 2 million it will indirectly force a salary floor, and also cause the mid-tier free agents to look more attractive.

Guys making a prorated 500k salary playing in front of millions is an absolute joke.  They can't even afford to pay for their families to attend the games.

The internet focusing on milb players sharing a 1 bedroom apartment and eating ramen is misguided.  

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21 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

The union better step up and get pre-arb players paid.  That is more important than every other issue combined. 

If those guys start at 2 million it will indirectly force a salary floor, and also cause the mid-tier free agents to look more attractive.

Guys making a prorated 500k salary playing in front of millions is an absolute joke.  They can't even afford to pay for their families to attend the games.

The internet focusing on milb players sharing a 1 bedroom apartment and eating ramen is misguided.  

I mean, what happens to minor leaguers is a problem also. It's not a problem that this CBA will solve, but it is a problem that should be solved. 

Not only is it inhumane, but it's bad for the team for the guys they want to develop to have to live like that. Furthermore, it's almost certainly a violation of federal labor laws.

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6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I mean, what happens to minor leaguers is a problem also. It's not a problem that this CBA will solve, but it is a problem that should be solved. 

Not only is it inhumane, but it's bad for the team for the guys they want to develop to have to live like that. Furthermore, it's almost certainly a violation of federal labor laws.

If we get our way and those conditions and pay improve, the league will cut MILB dramatically at the first sign of difficult times (probably will regardless).  Those affected communities will then put independent clubs in those ballparks and young ballplayers will still line up for the chance to live in a 1bdr apt and eat ramen...  on the new unaffiliated team.  Nothing will change.  

 

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Just now, GREEDY said:

If we get our way and those conditions and pay improve, the league will cut MILB dramatically at the first sign of difficult times (probably will regardless).  Those affected communities will then put independent clubs in those ballparks and young ballplayers will still line up for the chance to live in a 1bdr apt and eat ramen...  on the new unaffiliated team.  Nothing will change.  

 

They did exactly that already.

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1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

They did exactly that already.

Trust me, I know.  First hand.

And the summer college leagues that are popping up are actually a great thing.  But are being propped up by kids that are living and playing at publicly funded JUCOs.  I feel there will definitely be a backlash against these state run JUCOs acting as a minor league system (for several sports). 

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Honestly, I get what you are saying greedy but I still think it's better overall if the MLB runs a minor league system with better treatment and better performing player development and scouting for a smaller number of people than the "put thousands of kids into a shitty summer camp and see what floats to the top" that has been the norm for 75-80 yrs. That there would still be a spill over of more talented kids who would have been in the affiliate system now just in a worse off independent league isn't a wonderful everyone lives happier ever after story, but they at least have more freedom of movement between teams, and can place themselves in the cities and towns they are most comfortable.

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15 minutes ago, bmags said:

Honestly, I get what you are saying greedy but I still think it's better overall if the MLB runs a minor league system with better treatment and better performing player development and scouting for a smaller number of people than the "put thousands of kids into a shitty summer camp and see what floats to the top" that has been the norm for 75-80 yrs. That there would still be a spill over of more talented kids who would have been in the affiliate system now just in a worse off independent league isn't a wonderful everyone lives happier ever after story, but they at least have more freedom of movement between teams, and can place themselves in the cities and towns they are most comfortable.

And entertaining independent teams can still exist if they're profitable, they can certainly find players to attract, but they would have to pay their bills as well, including paying for the players.

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31 minutes ago, bmags said:

Honestly, I get what you are saying greedy but I still think it's better overall if the MLB runs a minor league system with better treatment 

Agreed.      In a perfect world.

I think the only way the union can make it happen would be increasing the minimum contract required to draft or initially sign a player.  Feels much easier than attempting to tight rope walk employment laws and getting kids (players the clubs don't even want to employ) a slightly larger weekly stipend.

But even more egregious and actually addressable is Seby Zavala, who has likely worked his entire life towards making the bigs, at 28 years old, only earning 214k dollars last year.  The club likely employs dozens of people in the front office, security, advertising etc that all earned more in 2021. 

Rommy Gonzalez made 64k, Sheets 233k.  That is where the union needs to focus, that is, if their agents (who tell them what to do) care about ANYTHING other than how big their total piece of the pie grows. 

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30 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

Agreed.      In a perfect world.

I think the only way the union can make it happen would be increasing the minimum contract required to draft or initially sign a player.  Feels much easier than attempting to tight rope walk employment laws and getting kids (players the clubs don't even want to employ) a slightly larger weekly stipend.

But even more egregious and actually addressable is Seby Zavala, who has likely worked his entire life towards making the bigs, at 28 years old, only earning 214k dollars last year.  The club likely employs dozens of people in the front office, security, advertising etc that all earned more in 2021. 

Rommy Gonzalez made 64k, Sheets 233k.  That is where the union needs to focus, that is, if their agents (who tell them what to do) care about ANYTHING other than how big their total piece of the pie grows. 

Sheets and Seby qualify for the pension now, however, which does come with some benefits. But I fully agree.

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1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Can the thread title be corrected. This is not a "work stoppage" it's an Owner Lockout.

 

Strikes and Lockouts are both different kinds of work stoppages though. 

Double edit: there seem to be competeing definitions. So idk whatever

Edited by mqr
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There seems to be a pretty popular opinion that Rob manfred is terrible at his job. 
 

his job is to be a lightning rod for the owners. He’s incredibly good at it. 

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7 minutes ago, mqr said:

There seems to be a pretty popular opinion that Rob manfred is terrible at his job. 
 

his job is to be a lightning rod for the owners. He’s incredibly good at it. 

This is true, his job is to serve the interested of the owners.   But he's been pretty terrible for the game of baseball IMO and he's an easy target as the face of ownership.  

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2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

This is true, his job is to serve the interested of the owners.   But he's been pretty terrible for the game of baseball IMO and he's an easy target as the face of ownership.  

Like half the owners are completely uninterested in baseball and are more concerned about the real estate venture their teams represent. 
 

What I’m getting at is Manfred is bad for baseball because the people who hired him don’t give a shit about it. 

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This is such an interesting, dynamic topic. In theory, there's solutions that should benefit both and create a great baseball atmosphere. In reality, it's a fight of capitalistic greed and the amount of propaganda that comes out from both sides clouds everything and creates the social environment that we see on the topic.

On top of this, there's SO many issues at play here and each issue seems like both sides are not budging.

Just to name a few of the issues off the top of my tiny brain...

- Expanded Playoffs

- NL DH

-Free agency

-Service time Manipulation

-League min. Contracts

-Salaray caps/floors

-MLB Rules (changing baseballs, runner on 2nd, etc.)

 

crazy

 

 

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1 minute ago, iWiN4PreP said:

This is such an interesting, dynamic topic. In theory, there's solutions that should benefit both and create a great baseball atmosphere. In reality, it's a fight of capitalistic greed and the amount of propaganda that comes out from both sides clouds everything and creates the social environment that we see on the topic.

On top of this, there's SO many issues at play here and each issue seems like both sides are not budging.

Just to name a few of the issues off the top of my tiny brain...

- Expanded Playoffs

- NL DH

-Free agency

-Service time Manipulation

-League min. Contracts

-Salaray caps/floors

-MLB Rules (changing baseballs, runner on 2nd, etc.)

 

crazy

 

 

Remember the last NFL Lockout? They had something like that about how angry the union was about all the things Gooddell was doing, and then as soon as they were about to start losing money by canceling games, they hammered out an agreement on the revenue split that was a compromise on that issue, and pretty quickly everything else fell into place?

Same deal. The money parts are what counts. The DH, Expanded playoffs, new rules - those are a sideshow. You get an agreement on the money part and the rest will probably see some incremental improvement, but fixing the actually broken business side of the game is the major problem.

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