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Conforto rejects QO, enters free agency

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1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

To add to this, the last five years of WAR from the Atlanta Braves OFs that won them a World Series, including that Soler guy you were dropping.

Soler 17 0.2, 18 3.5, 19 0.3, 20 -1.4, 21 1.1

Duvall, 17 2.0, 18 0.8, 19 0.7, 20 1.9, 21 1.2

Joc 17 --0.4, 18 2.2, 19 2.8, 20 -0.3, 21 -0.1

Rosario 17 1.6, 18 4.3, 19 1.5, 20 1.2, 21 

They threw enough resources at their problem that they got some solutions to stick. They also had the benefit of not having to face McCullers at full health, and not having to face Scherzer twice.

 

By contrast, the SOX FO addressed the RF hole with nobody, the 2B hole with Hernandez, and the mild issue with the bullpen with BOTH Kimbrel AND Tepera.

 

So yes, the asset allocation Atlanta chose to fix their issues was better than buying an obese closer contract to solve the vs RHP issue. Atlanta also were more fortunate to face McCullers and Scherzer at less than peak efficiency.

 

I happen to think that holes in the everyday lineup >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a mild issue with the bullpen. But hey, if you can show us how Kimbrel would help this lineup solve McCullers, and how Kimbrel would solve the gaping hole in RF, I'm all ears. 

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

They threw enough resources at their problem that they got some solutions to stick. They also had the benefit of not having to face McCullers at full health, and not having to face Scherzer twice.

 

By contrast, the SOX FO addressed the RF hole with nobody, the 2B hole with Hernandez, and the mild issue with the bullpen with BOTH Kimbrel AND Tepera.

 

So yes, the asset allocation Atlanta chose to fix their issues was better than buying an obese closer contract to solve the vs RHP issue. Atlanta also were more fortunate to face McCullers and Scherzer at less than peak efficiency.

That was an impressive goal post shift into a completely different topic.

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13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

That was an impressive goal post shift into a completely different topic.

No no, I've admitted that there was an issue with the pen. You listed the assets that Atlanta acquired to solve their issues.

I listed the assets the SOX acquired to solve their issues. 

I think its entirely fair to compare which team did a better job to plug their teams holes, since you brought it to our attention.

 

Let's review for our SOX:

RF issue: Get nobody. Wish and pray and hope that Engel would finally get healthy, that the plodding 1B/LF types could be hidden there, and plug in Leury.

2B: Add Hernandez

Glaring lineup deficiency vs RHP: Hope that Hernandez, a returning Grandal, and perhaps, a rookie in Sheets can stop RHP from curbstomping the lineup. 

Small issue with a RH setup man: Get BOTH Tepera AND an obese contract tied to a guy who, according to TLR, isn't a setup man, and who, according to Chicago White Sox, has only been good 54% of the time in recent seasons, while giving away 2 cheap pieces of the MLB roster.

 

Vs. Atlanta:

 

OF holes: Go buy 4 cheap options that wouldn't kill their future ability to maneuver if they failed, but if they worked, this was the result.

 

To be fair to both sides, I also noted that the SOX had a tougher row to hoe vs a full strength McCullers, while Atlanta avoided having to face a full strength McCullers and Scherzer. 

 

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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14 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

No no, I've admitted that there was an issue with the pen. You listed the assets that Atlanta acquired to solve their issues.

I listed the assets the SOX acquired to solve their issues. 

I think its entirely fair to compare which team did a better job to plug their teams holes, since you brought it to our attention.

 

Let's review for our SOX:

RF issue: Get nobody. Wish and pray and hope that Engel would finally get healthy, that the plodding 1B/LF types could be hidden there, and plug in Leury.

2B: Add Hernandez

Glaring lineup deficiency vs RHP: Hope that Hernandez, a returning Grandal, and perhaps, a rookie in Sheets can stop RHP from curbstomping the lineup. 

Small issue with a RH setup man: Get BOTH Tepera AND an obese contract tied to a guy who, according to TLR, isn't a setup man, and who, according to Chicago White Sox, has only been good 54% of the time in recent seasons, while giving away 2 cheap pieces of the MLB roster.

 

Vs. Atlanta:

 

OF holes: Go buy 4 cheap options that wouldn't kill their future ability to maneuver if they failed, but if they worked, this was the result.

 

To be fair to both sides, I also noted that the SOX had a tougher row to hoe vs a full strength McCullers, while Atlanta avoided having to face a full strength McCullers and Scherzer. 

 

Two  questions, at the time they were acquired, Hernandez had the same OPS + as Duvall, and blew Pederson and Soler away. How was it those guys were can't miss, and Hernandez was clearly washed up? And how come you didn't post your opinion in the Hermandez trade thread?

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21 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

No no, I've admitted that there was an issue with the pen. You listed the assets that Atlanta acquired to solve their issues.

I listed the assets the SOX acquired to solve their issues. 

I think its entirely fair to compare which team did a better job to plug their teams holes.

 

Again for our SOX:

RF issue: Get nobody. Wish and pray and hope that Engel would finally get healthy, that the plodding 1B/LF types could be hidden there, and plug in Leury.

2B: Add Hernandez

Small issue with a RH setup man: Get BOTH Tepera AND an obese contract tied to a guy who, according to TLR, isn't a setup man, and who, according to Chicago White Sox, has only been good 54% of the time in recent seasons, while giving away 2 cheap pieces of the MLB roster.

 

Vs. Atlanta:

 

OF holes: Go buy 4 cheap options that wouldn't kill their future ability to maneuver if they failed, but if they worked, this was the result.

 

To be fair to both sides, I also noted that the SOX had a tougher row to hoe vs a full strength McCullers, while Atlanta avoided having to face a full strength McCullers and Scherzer. 

 

No, you spent post after post trashing Hernandez as toast because it should have been obvious by his stats, when Atlanta just won a world series by picking up four guys with worse profiles than Hernandez, yet Atlanta is a genius.

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9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Two  questions, at the time they were acquired, Hernandez had the same OPS + as Duvall, and blew Pederson and Soler away. How was it those guys were can't miss, and Hernandez was clearly washed up? And how come you didn't post your opinion in the Hermandez trade thread?

With respect to the bolded, I was on the road a bit more for work during that timeframe. That said, I promise you that if RH fucks up again, I'll make sure to thrash him, if he so warrants it. Sound good?

 

Ok, I have questions about your post:

1. Where did I write, "Can't miss" for any of those guys?

2. If in fact I did not write "Can't miss," will you be intellectually honest enough to admit that?

 

Here's what I wrote about those acquisitions:

"...Go buy 4 cheap options that wouldn't kill their future ability to maneuver if they failed..."

 

So again, where was the imaginary post you read where I wrote that anyone was "Can't miss?"

 

Thanks in advance for your honesty.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

No, you spent post after post trashing Hernandez as toast because it should have been obvious by his stats, when Atlanta just won a world series by picking up four guys with worse profiles than Hernandez, yet Atlanta is a genius.

Well, you tried to make it about asset allocation, so I thought I'd follow your line of argument. So let's try again:

How would Kimbrel help the deficiency vs RHP? And how would Kimbrel help plug the hole in RF?

I happen to believe that holes in the everyday lineup are more important than mild issues with a bullpen.

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2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Well, you tried to make it about asset allocation, so I thought I'd follow your line of argument. So let's try again:

How would Kimbrel help the deficiency vs RHP? And how would Kimbrel help plug the hole in RF?

I happen to believe that holes in the everyday lineup are more important than mild issues with a bullpen.

Yet the Braves tried to fill three starting OF positions with worse profiles than the guy you were ripping the Sox for getting, but that is a success.  That is some crazy contortions.

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3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yet the Braves tried to fill three starting OF positions with worse profiles than the guy you were ripping the Sox for getting, but that is a success.  That is some crazy contortions.

And the SOX plugged their RF hole with nobody, while Atlanta made an effort to address their issues with multiple guys.

The SOX also addressed their vs RHP issues with just Hernandez, while overspending on a pen that did not need another obese closer contract.

 

So, who did better at at the TDL? 

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And the SOX plugged their RF hole with nobody, while Atlanta made an effort to address their issues with multiple guys.

The SOX also addressed their vs RHP issues with Hernandez. 

 

So, who did better at at the TDL?

How many times can we say the same thing over and over and over and over again?

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1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And the SOX plugged their RF hole with nobody, while Atlanta made an effort to address their issues with multiple guys.

The SOX also addressed their vs RHP issues with Hernandez. 

 

So, who did better at at the TDL?

This is you.

Anyone can justify anything, if you cut up trends into nice segments. Hernandez was in a clear, straight-line decline of 19% over the 2017-2021 time frame, full stop.

Yet, somehow when the Braves did it more, and at a higher level, this was a great thing.

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fortunately, I hated the cesar trade so I am in fact the straight shooter you all need to assess opinions.

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1 minute ago, hi8is said:

How many times can we say the same thing over and over and over and over again?

Because those who want to defend this FO don't want to be honest enough to address these realities.

Yes, this team needed a RH setup man, but the holes elsewhere were bigger, IMO.

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3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

this team needed a RH setup man, but the holes elsewhere were bigger, IMO.

How many times can we say the same thing over and over and over and over again?

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1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yet, somehow when the Braves did it more, and at a higher level, this was a great thing.

And you're avoiding what is/was central to the discussion:

Was acquiring an obese closer contract the best thing to do, when there were multiple lineup holes, handedness lineup issues, and OF defense questions?

 

As it pertains to asset allocation, who did better?

That Atlanta addressed their issues with multiple cheap guys, vs.

Getting a closer that wasn't needed, and addressing only 1 lineup hole, while fucking your financial flexibility going forward?

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2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And you're avoiding what is/was central to the discussion:

Was acquiring an obese closer contract the best thing to do, when there were multiple lineup holes, handedness lineup issues, and OF defense questions?

 

As it pertains to asset allocation, who did better?

That Atlanta addressed their issues with multiple cheap guys, vs.

Getting a closer that wasn't needed, and addressing only 1 lineup hole, while fucking your financial flexibility going forward?

Literally none of these deals had to have any affect on financial flexibility going forward.  But I guess you are avoiding that too.  They still don't today.

I do like how you have assigned the phrase "asset allocation" to cover the Braves getting a bunch of guys worse than Cesar Hernandez so that you can still be mad and trash Cesar Hernandez.

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3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And you're avoiding what is/was central to the discussion:

Was acquiring an obese closer contract the best thing to do, when there were multiple lineup holes, handedness lineup issues, and OF defense questions?

 

As it pertains to asset allocation, who did better?

That Atlanta addressed their issues with multiple cheap guys, vs.

Getting a closer that wasn't needed, and addressing only 1 lineup hole, while fucking your financial flexibility going forward?

This actually feels like a pretty separate discussion from your specific comments about Cesar's clear and obvious regression. I'm still wondering why Cesar was an absolute lock to fail and Atlanta's pickups were not a lock to fail, despite having worse profiles?

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19 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Literally none of these deals had to have any affect on financial flexibility going forward.  But I guess you are avoiding that too.  They still don't today.

I do like how you have assigned the phrase "asset allocation" to cover the Braves getting a bunch of guys worse than Cesar Hernandez so that you can still be mad and trash Cesar Hernandez.

Ooh, so this is a great topic shift to avoid the questions surrounding the choice to overspend on a pen, while doing nothing about the lineup imbalance and OF hole, so I'll follow you.

I happen to believe that the SOX have budgetary limitations, and that spending uselessly on smaller pieces impedes the future ability to buy bigger ones.

Let's have some fun with arithmetic:

1. Madrigal and Heuer were on $600k/yr before they were shipped out. To replace them with garden-variety league average pieces, what would it take in salary? I'll posit ~$5-6MM for each player. So, ~$10-12MM instead of $1.2MM.

2. The SOX paid Kimbrel roughly half of his contract last year, so what, $8MM?

3. In a marketplace where the entirety of MLB knows that RH wants to sell Kimbrel (thus fucking his negotiating leverage), and after a post season where Kimbrel shat his pants, and after a few years where he's been bad as frequently as he's been good, I believe it will take sending some cash to get anything in return for Kimbrel. Especially, in his age 33/will be 34 in May season, during a CBA renegotiation.

Let's use the range of $8-10MM to be sent along with Kimbrel, in order to get a piece back.

4. Back of the envelope totals: ~$10-12MM to find a high leverage RH RP + an everyday 2B, PLUS the ~$8MM already paid to Kimbrel, PLUS ~$8-10MM to ship Kimbrel out = $26 -30MM that was spent on this misadventure. Subtract out what this org COULD be paying Madrigal/Heuer/cheaper TDL pieces, and maybe we're only looking at $20MM squandered.

 

Now, when posters want to know why this org can't bid for Semien or Comforto, point to the money squandered on smaller pieces that keep a budget-conscious org from making bigger splashes more regularly.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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12 minutes ago, Snopek said:

This actually feels like a pretty separate discussion from your specific comments about Cesar's clear and obvious regression. I'm still wondering why Cesar was an absolute lock to fail and Atlanta's pickups were not a lock to fail, despite having worse profiles?

Can you point to where I posted that "Atlanta's pickups were not a lock to fail?"

 

Thanks.

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15 minutes ago, Snopek said:

This actually feels like a pretty separate discussion from your specific comments about Cesar's clear and obvious regression. I'm still wondering why Cesar was an absolute lock to fail and Atlanta's pickups were not a lock to fail, despite having worse profiles?

Because of "asset allocation" meaning it was OK for Atlanta to do it 4 times, but not the Sox to do it once, despite the Sox ow

 

4 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Ooh, so this is a great topic shift to avoid the questions surrounding the choice to overspend on a pen, while doing nothing about the lineup imbalance and OF hole, so I'll follow you.

I happen to believe that the SOX have budgetary limitations, and that spending uselessly on smaller pieces impedes the future ability to buy bigger ones.

Let's have some fun with arithmetic:

1. Madrigal and Heuer were on $600k/yr before they were shipped out. To replace them with garden-variety ~2-ish WAR pieces, what would it take in salary? I'll posit ~$5-6MM for each player. So, ~$10-12MM instead of $1.2MM.

2. The SOX paid Kimbrel roughly half of his contract last year, so what, $8MM?

3. In a marketplace where the entirety of MLB knows that RH wants to sell Kimbrel (thus fucking his negotiating leverage), and after a post season where Kimbrel shat his pants, and after a few years where he's been bad as frequently as he's been good, I believe it will take sending some cash to get anything in return for Kimbrel. Especially, in his age 33/will be 34 in May season, during a CBA renegotiation.

Let's use the range of $8-10MM to be sent along with Kimbrel, in order to get a piece back.

4. Back of the envelope totals: ~$10-12MM to find a high leverage RH RP + an everyday 2B, PLUS the ~$8MM already paid to Kimbrel, PLUS ~$8-10MM to ship Kimbrel out = $26 -30MM that was spent on this misadventure. Subtract out what this org COULD be paying Madrigal/Heuer/cheaper TDL pieces, and maybe we're only looking at $20MM squandered.

 

Now, when posters want to know why this org can't bid for Semien or Comforto, point to the money squandered on smaller pieces that keep a budget-conscious org from making bigger splashes more regularly.

So Atlanta didn't trade anyone to get these guys?  That doesn't enter the equation for Atlanta, but only the Sox?  Boy that sounds familiar.  You are quite literally making up justifications for the last failed justifications you had made.

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5 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Can you point to where I posted that "Atlanta's pickups were not a lock to fail?"

 

Thanks.

Well no cuz you haven’t done your fun/mildly condescending “back of the baseball card” breakdown for those guys yet. That’s what I was waiting for, so that I can understand what the difference is.

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1 minute ago, fathom said:

I love how none of this has to do with Conforto

Who?

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3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So Atlanta didn't trade anyone to get these guys?  That doesn't enter the equation for Atlanta, but only the Sox?  Boy that sounds familiar.  You are quite literally making up justifications for the last failed justifications you had made.

Wait, you said, "Literally none of these deals had to have any affect on financial flexibility going forward. " 

Do you disagree with the arithmetic? 

 

That said, Atlanta traded a backup C for Duvall, a prospect 1B in High A for Pederson, and a Hi A pitcher for Soler. Of these 3, only the backup C would have to be replaced in Atlanta's 2022 payroll. 

So on that basis, not only did Atlanta actually attempt to address their issues, they did so without squandering future financial resources.

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