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GM Meetings - Front Office Diversity

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8 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

I also can't help but think this is funny timing for it to come out after the TLR experience of JR going over all of their heads.  Typically I would expect them to promote Hahn, but I still wonder how good he is with getting usurped and embarrassed like that.

Read the article. 

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1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said:

Keith law ranted about that topic in a podcast recently. 

The Sabermetric movement actually made the situation for POC front office personnel worse. It was always a white world in front offices but at least there were a few black guys like Michael Hill, Dave Stewart etc because back then front offices were recruited from baseball lifers and usually former players. 

The ivy league movement decreased diversity because now every new GM is a young white Ivy league graduate. 

 

Obviously there are also qualified black ivy league graduates but those people are not chosen, the only way for black personnel to make it into baseball jobs is being a former pro player. 

There are rules for Diversity but Apparently teams circumvent that By inviting some former black GMs like Michael Hill to interviews with no intention of signing them. 

Yes, until you change the ownership mindset (old boy network), you will continue to get the same results.

The Sox advanced in the playoffs only once in a century of mostly moribund baseball. They were led by a GM and Manager given their first opportunity in their respective roles. This is what Kenny is asking for, giving people an opportunity.

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1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said:

Keith law ranted about that topic in a podcast recently. 

The Sabermetric movement actually made the situation for POC front office personnel worse. It was always a white world in front offices but at least there were a few black guys like Michael Hill, Dave Stewart etc because back then front offices were recruited from baseball lifers and usually former players. 

The ivy league movement decreased diversity because now every new GM is a young white Ivy league graduate. 

 

Obviously there are also qualified black ivy league graduates but those people are not chosen, the only way for black personnel to make it into baseball jobs is being a former pro player. 

There are rules for Diversity but Apparently teams circumvent that By inviting some former black GMs like Michael Hill to interviews with no intention of signing them. 

Keith Law is a woke blue checkmark who sucks his thumb. 

 

Fact of the matter is African Americans prefer to play other sports than Baseball.  Until Basketball, Football, etc. are no longer around, nothing is going to change for “diversity numbers” in Baseball.

 

 

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2 hours ago, ThatBallHitDeep_WAYBack said:

Keith Law is a woke blue checkmark who sucks his thumb. 

Fact of the matter is African Americans prefer to play other sports than Baseball.  Until Basketball, Football, etc. are no longer around, nothing is going to change for “diversity numbers” in Baseball.

43% of MLB players are either Hispanic (32%), Black (8%) or Asian (3%).  Their representation at the top executive positions (GM, President, Owner)? A small fraction of this. The Selig Rule memo was released during the last millennium, on April 14, 1999.

But yeah you are correct, executives such as Kenny Williams, Theo Epstein and others in the industry who recognize and seek to change this disparity are wrong. Not that I expect someone who posted your drivel to actually comprehend and/or accept these statements.

PS - Your weak-ass Basketball/Football participation theory doesn't hold water.

  • NFL - There are the same number of Black head coaches as in 2003 (the year the Rooney Rule was implemented), and one General Manager (Chris Grier).
  • NBA - Until 2017, there were more racist NBA owners (at least two now known - Sterling, Sarver) than NBA Presidents (one - Doc Rivers, who sadly had to work for Sterling), and only three GMs (Dell Demps, Steve Mills and Masai Ujiri). The level of black participation over the 70 years prior had zero impact on who the owners hired or, more accurately, did not / refused to hire. It took an actual commitment by ownership, the people with final say with these decisions, to begin making clear and widespread changes to how their league was run.

It's clear MLB and NFL owners collectively have a long way to go, two plus decades after issuing their respective "rules", to begin to make an actual difference.

Edited by South Side Hit Men
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3 hours ago, ThatBallHitDeep_WAYBack said:

Keith Law is a woke blue checkmark who sucks his thumb. 

 

Fact of the matter is African Americans prefer to play other sports than Baseball.  Until Basketball, Football, etc. are no longer around, nothing is going to change for “diversity numbers” in Baseball.

 

 

I like pudding, so there.

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I like Kenny a little more after his statement. I like being a Sox fan a little more when I realize the number of barriers the organization has broken. 

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A lot of this low diversity hirings happen unconsciously. People say "the best guys rise to the top" but business owners are people too and they have biases. 

Some of those owners might be racist but even those who are not really racist still have biases and when in doubt they will subconsciously trust people that are like them too. 

That applies to race, gender and even just socioeconomic background (a white man from a "bad family" or poor background is unlikely to make it either).

This is what diversity is about. It is about race but also about opening up for just people from a different background, many business owners do limit themselves by always picking people that are like themselves. 

There are even some studies suggesting diversity will improve decisions because by bringing in people from different racial, gender and social backgrounds you will get a greater diversity of ideas too. 

Not every of those ideas will be good and those non diverse hires are good at their job too but their similar background limits the kind of life experiences they have and in turn often their ideas and solutions will be similar. 

Edited by Dominikk85
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Is MLB going to the Ivy leagues and seeking out candidates or are the candidates going of the Ivy's seeking out MLB jobs.

My opinion is that if you are a person of color you seek out a more secure opportunity upon entering the professional field than that offered in the MLB.  When Hanh took the job he was grossly underpaid but had a support system that allowed for him to do that.  The White Sox basically told Hahn he was stupid for taking on what essentially was an internship while a long list of educational accomplishments.  Do POC want to take that route? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Is MLB going to the Ivy leagues and seeking out candidates or are the candidates going of the Ivy's seeking out MLB jobs.

My opinion is that if you are a person of color you seek out a more secure opportunity upon entering the professional field than that offered in the MLB.  When Hanh took the job he was grossly underpaid but had a support system that allowed for him to do that.  The White Sox basically told Hahn he was stupid for taking on what essentially was an internship while a long list of educational accomplishments.  Do POC want to take that route? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's a lot of truth to this unfortunately. Many people of color with similar credentials to Jed Hoyer, Rick Hahn etc land jobs in much more lucrative fields than major league baseball. 

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34 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Is MLB going to the Ivy leagues and seeking out candidates or are the candidates going of the Ivy's seeking out MLB jobs.

My opinion is that if you are a person of color you seek out a more secure opportunity upon entering the professional field than that offered in the MLB.  When Hanh took the job he was grossly underpaid but had a support system that allowed for him to do that.  The White Sox basically told Hahn he was stupid for taking on what essentially was an internship while a long list of educational accomplishments.  Do POC want to take that route? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How do we know what Hahn was paid? What did the White Sox say that basically messaged he was stupid for taking on an "internship"?

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17 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

How do we know what Hahn was paid? What did the White Sox say that basically messaged he was stupid for taking on an "internship"?

This article is bizarre because i'm pretty sure it's formatting was lost in some redesign but it's basically a story he's told in many interviews. He got an interview with Jerry through a parents friend, and Jerry told him to get a real job, then sent him a letter saying he wouldn't help ruin his life, but offered that he could volunteer to learn alongside his scouts. In other words, he wasn't paid.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/sox-drawer-why-harvard-didnt-help-hahn

Hahn worked hard to get where he is, but how many people can get into Jerry and Kenny's office multiple times? 

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45 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Is MLB going to the Ivy leagues and seeking out candidates or are the candidates going of the Ivy's seeking out MLB jobs.

My opinion is that if you are a person of color you seek out a more secure opportunity upon entering the professional field than that offered in the MLB.  When Hanh took the job he was grossly underpaid but had a support system that allowed for him to do that.  The White Sox basically told Hahn he was stupid for taking on what essentially was an internship while a long list of educational accomplishments.  Do POC want to take that route? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think those ivy league guys have pretty strong networks, so that owner who went to Harvard has an old friend who has a son who just graduated in business analytics and wants to work in baseball for a few years before he enters the "real world". 

 

That is the other issue for Diversity in baseball, there is some straight discrimination but the other reason is entry level analytics jobs are very badly paid or even unpaid internships but still seeking out highly qualified persons who can do like machine learning etc. 

This works for the rich white kid who gets paid his student loans by dad and maybe even getting some extra money. 

That dad is telling his kid "you can do that job as an adventure for 3 years and I will send you some extra money to cover but then you either need to move up in baseball and get paid or you have to move the real world".

Owners abuse this to suppress salaries, analytics people will work for 30-50% of what they would get in the business world just for the dream of working in baseball. 

POC (and lower class white guys) can't always afford that even if they have the education because they have to pay student loans and maybe even already a family so they just can't afford to work well under market rate. 

But as long there are enough rich family ivy league kids who are willing to work for low salary for a couple years just so they can later brag and say they worked for the Yankees owners have no reason to pay market rate for Entry level analytics jobs. 

 

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Just now, Dominikk85 said:

I think those ivy league guys have pretty strong networks, so that owner who went to Harvard has an old friend who has a son who just graduated in business analytics and wants to work in baseball for a few years before he enters the "real world". 

 

That is the other issue for Diversity in baseball, there is some straight discrimination but the other reason is entry level analytics jobs are very badly paid or even unpaid internships but still seeking out highly qualified persons who can do like machine learning etc. 

This works for the rich white kid who gets paid his student loans by dad and maybe even getting some extra money. 

That dad is telling his kid "you can do that job as an adventure for 3 years and I will send you some extra money to cover but then you either need to move up in baseball and get paid or you have to move the real world".

Owners abuse this to suppress salaries, analytics people will work for 30-50% of what they would get in the business world just for the dream of working in baseball. 

POC (and lower class white guys) can't always afford that even if they have the education because they have to pay student loans and maybe even already a family so they just can't afford to work well under market rate. 

But as long there are enough rich family ivy league kids who are willing to work for low salary for a couple years just so they can later brag and say they worked for the Yankees owners have no reason to pay market rate for Entry level analytics jobs. 

 

One thing that has happened in Basketball that hopefully will translate is the move of former players into agents, which has now embraced agents to front office. Which circumvents the "players not wanting to work as 30k/yr analytics roles".

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Racial preference in hiring and racism in general persist.   I lived through the era of 100% racially segregated neighborhoods and public schools in Chicago when whites opposed and protested against  affirmative action and school busing. Nothing much has changed since then. Justin Fields football  helmet calls out to "End Racism."  However, I doubt that happens for another 100 years or more. Maybe never. Yea, yea, the best person should be hired for the job and no one should get any special treatment regardless of race,  slavery and racism ended with the Civil War, I am not a racist....  This straddles the line here between politics and baseball, but I think it is safe to say that whatever one's opinion is on minority hiring, no one, including Kenny Williams, is going to change your mind.

 

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Yeah this is more of a class issue than race issue. The elites can afford to send their kids to Ivy League schools and pay for it. Operations in sports is of the absolute most competitive fields to break into in for Ivy League grads. If you want to work in a front office, you have to be a former player or have Ivy League background (or ND, Stanford, etc.).

I wish I could have cashed in on being white to work in a front office but I didn't have the resume (not a player, not Ivy League) and I had too much student debt to work in a role where I was "earning my stripes" or basically being an apprentice. 

It is crazy how competitive it is. Hahn tried to hire Brewers GM David Stearns before the Mets did. Sox liked him but didn't have the room. That guy is now a top 10 exec in the game. 

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6 hours ago, raBBit said:

Yeah this is more of a class issue than race issue. The elites can afford to send their kids to Ivy League schools and pay for it. Operations in sports is of the absolute most competitive fields to break into in for Ivy League grads. If you want to work in a front office, you have to be a former player or have Ivy League background (or ND, Stanford, etc.).

I wish I could have cashed in on being white to work in a front office but I didn't have the resume (not a player, not Ivy League) and I had too much student debt to work in a role where I was "earning my stripes" or basically being an apprentice. 

It is crazy how competitive it is. Hahn tried to hire Brewers GM David Stearns before the Mets did. Sox liked him but didn't have the room. That guy is now a top 10 exec in the game. 

I understand what you are saying, but some would classify class issues as issues of race, and vice versa. Not that MLB has the sole power to change the race issue in America.

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Kenny didn't go through years of a rebuild to retire when the team gets started on its competitive run. I'm betting he'll be around another 4-5 years. 

Edited by KrankinSox

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8 hours ago, KrankinSox said:

Kenny didn't go through years of a rebuild to retire when the team gets started on its competitive run. I'm betting he'll be around another 4-5 years. 

And then there are folks who don’t want to die at work. Retirement is a financial condition not an age. He could enjoy the fruits of his labor while watching games from a villa in Tuscany or whatever he wants to do. If he has only two more years on the contract I wouldn’t be shocked if he retired. 

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And I bet minority ownership for minor league baseball teams is less than 2-3%, another potential avenue into the game…

https://www.hwsgroup.com/savits-take-over-greenjackets/

This details the deal (a now tiny $1.1 million profit but still significant in the mid-90s) for the team I worked for in 1994-95.

Back then, most minor league teams were available for under $10 million, except the top AA/AAA markets.

His (owner’s grandfather) was the founder of Scripps/Howard Newspapers (also known for hospitals/cancer clinics, UPI News Syndicate, National Spelling Bee)…for him, it was just a 2-3 times a year plaything, going to the Winter Meetings, hob-nobbing  with other elites.  His wife I recall pushed him to get rid of the team.  He did spring for really nice championship rings for all the front office staff, but nothing like major league teams get.


“Scripps family ranks highest in the Tri-State, at No. 34, with a net worth of $7.5 billion. The family's wealth is a result of Edward Willis Scripps founding the E.W. Scripps media empire in 1878.”

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18 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:

I understand what you are saying, but some would classify class issues as issues of race, and vice versa. Not that MLB has the sole power to change the race issue in America.

For sure but the hope would be for equity in opportunity and not necessarily outcome. While it would be impossible to have the demographic breakdown of executives in baseball to mirror the population of the country, it should be more closely aligned with the demographics of the game.

For instance, Kenny Williams broached this issue in reference to AA's but it would seem the Latino community is the most excluded. Looking at the demographics of Ivy League schools, the Asian demo is typically double and sometimes 4-5x their population of the US. African American population is typically underrepresented with exceptions (Harvard, Yale). The white population is underrepresented in almost every case usually making up 40-45% of Ivy League schools with the population of the country making up more than half. In every case, the Hispanic population is underrepresented in the Ivy League. Digging into these demographics the conclusion to take away isn't really about whites or black people as they are both slightly underrepresented to their proportionate share of the population. The takeaway is the Latin community is significantly under represented and the Asian and Jewish populations clearly prioritize higher education and have the means to send their kids there leading to these demos being over-represented to their proportionate share of the US pop by multiples.

Looking at the demographics of the MLB, whites and Asian American are slightly under-repped. African American are more significantly underrepresented and the Hispanic population in the MLB is much higher than the relative share of the USA population. Why is there no one clamoring for more opportunity for Hispanics in the front offices when the severity of the lack of representation is so much higher? Given the Hispanic population has almost 2x the US population as AA in the USA and 4-5x the population as AA in the MLB, you would think they would have representation somewhere near their relative share of the population. I can think of an Irish ex, Black exec, an Italian GM, an Armenian GM, Chinese exec, etc. but can't think of one Hispanic.

In any case, if you look into the numbers after KW's comments and you find yourself wondering why the Latin pop is so underrepresented. For one thing, the majority of Hispanics in the MLB came to America because of baseball. Surely a part of this discrepancy is due to the fact that a good deal of these guys don't really have any interest in living a Western life and will return to their home country when their playing days are over.

To me, the league has to do more to attract young black kids to the game and the relative share of execs will bounce when the relative share of the game's population increases. Crazy how much the black population in MLB has dropped since the 80's. Getting equal representation of Latin's on the executive side seems to be a much bigger issue and much more complicated to fix as this group is typically not American-born or high school educated. 

Edited by raBBit
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11 minutes ago, raBBit said:

For sure but the hope would be for equity in opportunity and not necessarily outcome. While it would be impossible to have the demographic breakdown of executives in baseball to mirror the population of the country, it should be more closely aligned with the demographics of the game.

For instance, Kenny Williams broached this issue in reference to AA's but it would seem the Latino community is the most excluded. Looking at the demographics of Ivy League schools, the Asian demo is typically double and sometimes 4-5x their population of the US. African American population is typically underrepresented with exceptions (Harvard, Yale). The white population is underrepresented in almost every case usually making up 40-45% of Ivy League schools with the population of the country making up more than half. In every case, the Hispanic population is underrepresented in the Ivy League. Digging into these demographics the conclusion to take away isn't really about whites or black people as they are both slightly underrepresented to their proportionate share of the population. The takeaway is the Latin community is significantly under represented and the Asian and Jewish populations clearly prioritize higher education and have the means to send their kids there leading to these demos being over-represented to their proportionate share of the US pop by multiples.

Looking at the demographics of the MLB, whites and Asian American are slightly under-repped. African American are more significantly underrepresented and the Hispanic population in the MLB is much higher than the relative share of the USA population. Why is there no one clamoring for more opportunity for Hispanics in the front offices when the severity of the lack of representation is so much higher? Given the Hispanic population has ~3x the US population as AA in the USA and 4-5x the population as AA in the MLB, you would think they would have representation somewhere near their relative share of the population. I can think of an Irish ex, Black exec, an Italian GM, an Armenian GM, Chinese exec, etc. but can't think of one Hispanic.

In any case, if you look into the numbers after KW's comments and you find yourself wondering why the Latin pop is so underrepresented. For one thing, the majority of Hispanics in the MLB came to America because of baseball. Surely a part of this discrepancy is due to the fact that a good deal of these guys don't really have any interest in living a Western life and will return to their home country when their playing days are over.

To me, the league has to do more to attract young black kids to the game and the relative share of execs will bounce when the relative share of the game's population increases. Crazy how much the black population in MLB has dropped since the 80's. Getting equal representation of Latin's on the executive side seems to be a much bigger issue and much more complicated to fix as this group is typically not American-born or high school educated. 

How in God’s name is a 12-15% split (used to be closer to 13/14%) a 3x ratio of Hispanics to AA in the US population?

46.9 million AA compared to 62.1 million Hispanic/Latino.

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/improved-race-ethnicity-measures-reveal-united-states-population-much-more-multiracial.html

That doesn’t count “some other race” or multi-racial in either group, officially.

Even if we VERY generously added 20 million undocumented/DACA we don’t even come THAT close to 2/1.

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22 hours ago, raBBit said:

Yeah this is more of a class issue than race issue. The elites can afford to send their kids to Ivy League schools and pay for it. Operations in sports is of the absolute most competitive fields to break into in for Ivy League grads. If you want to work in a front office, you have to be a former player or have Ivy League background (or ND, Stanford, etc.).

I wish I could have cashed in on being white to work in a front office but I didn't have the resume (not a player, not Ivy League) and I had too much student debt to work in a role where I was "earning my stripes" or basically being an apprentice. 

It is crazy how competitive it is. Hahn tried to hire Brewers GM David Stearns before the Mets did. Sox liked him but didn't have the room. That guy is now a top 10 exec in the game. 

I know several people who broke into operations straight out of undergrad at places like FSU and Wisconsin - so I'd say your broad ranging proclamation is just not true. I also know several analysts/data science grads from local schools who went to work in analytics in baseball and left because of the treatment and layoffs during the pandemic coupled with the sub-par pay.

Additionally it feels as though your belittling the idea that white people have a better shot by stating it's driven by resume and your whiteness didn't get you in either. Just as is the case in most gate-keeped industries, networking and knowing someone involved is more beneficial than any ivy league degree.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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58 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Why is there no one clamoring for more opportunity for Hispanics in the front offices when the severity of the lack of representation is so much higher? Given the Hispanic population has ~3x the US population as AA in the USA and 4-5x the population as AA in the MLB.

Who says there aren't? Why do you assume that the promotion of minority hires into MLB only accounts for black people and not hispanic people or other people of non-white makeups? Also, how do Hispanics have three times the population? What data/numbers are you using to state that?

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2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I know several people who broke into operations straight out of undergrad at places like FSU and Wisconsin - so I'd say your broad ranging proclamation is just not true. I also know several analysts/data science grads from local schools who went to work in analytics in baseball and left because of the treatment and layoffs during the pandemic coupled with the sub-par pay.

Additionally it feels as though your belittling the idea that white people have a better shot by stating it's driven by resume and your whiteness didn't get you in either. Just as is the case in most gate-keeped industries, networking and knowing someone involved is more beneficial than any ivy league degree.

Oh great, you have testimonial evidence that completely undermines anything that widely known and understood. Which teams were ran by the "several analysts" you know? The topic at hand is about executives in the front office so not sure how your hoards of analyst friends apply. Though it is amazing none of the several people you know were able to keep a job in sports during covid.

As for the second part, that's you twisting words to beat down a narrative you want to beat down. White people have a better shot at obtaining anything in this country because they make up more than half the population. But yeah you're right, every white executive in baseball got the job because they know someone and it had nothing to do with the ivy league resumes, top MBAs/JDs, etc. It's all about who you know. Andrew Freidman learned how to build without a payroll because of his dad's buddy, Rick Hahn negotiates contract extensions better than anyone because his uncles knows Reinsdorf, etc. The only person belittling here is you.

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Who says there aren't? Why do you assume that the promotion of minority hires into MLB only accounts for black people and not hispanic people or other people of non-white makeups? Also, how do Hispanics have three times the population? What data/numbers are you using to state that?

Did you read the article that started this topic or are you just trying to poke holes in my posts talking about a subject you don't seem to understand?

Edited by raBBit
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28 minutes ago, raBBit said:

Oh great, you have testimonial evidence that completely undermines anything that widely known and understood. Which teams were ran by the "several analysts" you know? The topic at hand is about executives in the front office so not sure how your hoards of analyst friends apply. Though it is amazing none of the several people you know were able to keep a job in sports during covid.

As for the second part, that's you twisting words to beat down a narrative you want to beat down. White people have a better shot at obtaining anything in this country because they make up more than half the population. But yeah you're right, every white executive in baseball got the job because they know someone and it had nothing to do with the ivy league resumes, top MBAs/JDs, etc. It's all about who you know. Andrew Freidman learned how to build without a payroll because of his dad's buddy, Rick Hahn negotiates contract extensions better than anyone because his uncles knows Reinsdorf, etc. The only person belittling here is you.

Did you read the article that started this topic or are you just trying to poke holes in my posts talking about a subject you don't seem to understand?

The guy who got the job directly out of FSU undergrad is still working with his team and has moved his way up quite a bit. And as for your second response, it's not really amazing given that the industry is a black hole of exploitation that only a very select few get out of the void, while the majority work long hours with very few guarantees, and no protection during a pandemic. The way baseball managed the pandemic was shameful given that they already exploit analysts and then kicked them to the curb instead of paying them the minuscule wages (in comparison to their skills and credentials) they were being paid.

No, they have a better chance because many of the positions that exist are currently held by white people and psychology studies have shown us time and time again that people are more likely to hire people that LOOK like them, even if they don't believe they have any biases. You can read about this in "Nudge" or "Misbehaving" by behavioral economist Richard Thaler. You can also read about it briefly in "Thinking Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahnman. It also explains, as I already explained, why the executive ratios in all industries do not equal the national population breakdown OR the college educated national breakdown. This isn't merely a race issue, it's also a gendered issue. Baseball isn't alone in this problem, although one could argue that nepotism is even more grotesque in baseball than it is in other industries.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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