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Mets could shop McNeil, Sox could have interest

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32 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

You adore ME? I'm touched and flattered, even though we've never met in person, and TBH, I don't swing that way. Never change.

That said, given that I'VE been a SOX fan for far longer than any of the mouthbreathers in the FO have been with the SOX, I'm fully capable of having more than one thought at the same time. MANY of us can, in that we can "adore" the team we grew up watching, AND HATE the imbecility of the FO.

It really ain't that hard to do, TBH. 

1. Hey, its not a "charade," as in calling it an 'act of falsehood' on my part. I TRULY HATE the stupid shit the FO does. I TRULY believe that they're either too stupid, too weak, or just lying to you when they claimed a "multiple championships" window. So it isn't "an act," so much as I TRULY believe that I've fired more competent workers than they. I TRULY believe that if those clowns worked for a competent org, that KW and RH would be lucky to have a fucking mop job for the Rays or dodgers, for example.

2. I'm glad we agree on this part. Truly, an individual RP does not provide enough WAR to lift or to sink a team that was SO MUCH more talented than Cleveland or Minnesota. And so, for far less cash than they squandered on Kimbrel, they could have signed two ~0-1 WAR RP tokens to hold Kopech and Crochet down long enough to extend their controllable years. And as we've already discussed, the SOX's BP had the 3rd most fWAR when they acquired Kimbrel; him being added here hurt more than it helped.

3. Agreed. Since last offseason, they've traded the mid and long term for the sugar high of the short term. And posters that try to harken back to the "multiple championships" lie are stuck in 2019-era thinking. The "multiple championships" window is dead and gone. I simply pray that we can enjoy ONE ring before this group of players is split up via FA, OR Abreu/Grandal/Hendriks/Lynn get their abilities taken away by Father Time.

4. I'll disagree with you on Vaughn, and give those mouthbreathers a pass on keeping him here in 2021. There simply weren't a whole lot of other options to choose from, IMO. That said, in 2022, either Vaughn better learn how to hit RHP, OR this org better have the balls to send his ass down, if he continues to struggle v. RHP. Keeping Vaughn here for 2022 in a part time role while he struggles vs RHP further shortens this window, and harms HIS trade value.

If you ACTUALLY believed what you were saying, you wouldn't waste a second on this franchise, otherwise you are even more gullible than the people you pretend to look down on.

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You can say RH is a bad GM, but the one thing you can't say is he is a mouthbreather. Mouthbreathers don't graduate from Michigan, get a law degree at Harvard and an MBA at NU. 

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2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

You can say RH is a bad GM, but the one thing you can't say is he is a mouthbreather. Mouthbreathers don't graduate from Michigan, get a law degree at Harvard and an MBA at NU. 

FEC2C5DA-790D-47F3-AE24-E44CD7F6AE7A.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

You can say RH is a bad GM, but the one thing you can't say is he is a mouthbreather. Mouthbreathers don't graduate from Michigan, get a law degree at Harvard and an MBA at NU. 

Some people live for the drama.

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I did spend some time going through the stats on his huge 2021 dropoff. McNeil has an excellent K-rate, but a generally low exit velocity. He doesn't hit the ball hard, but he makes contact. Compared to 2020 his walk rate did drop off somewhat, but his K-rate didn't spike and there was basically no real drop in his exit velocity compared to 2019, and his exit velocity was higher in 2021 than in 2020. 

What I do see is that there's a big change in the way he's hitting in 2021. There's a big dropoff in him pulling the ball and a big increase in him going the other way. There's a drop in hard contact and an increase in medium and soft contact. There was a career high in ground ball rate.

His BABIP went from being .340 in his first 3 seasons to .280 in 2021 - was that bad luck, or was that the poor quality of his contact? It's a little hard to believe his BABIP stayed above .330 all 3 of his first 3 years and 1000 PAs by luck. Perhaps a little bit unlucky in 2021, but the dropoff in BABIP fits with the dropoff in his contact quality.

He also went from a 15% HR/FB rate in 2019 to a 6.5% rate in 2021 - but its hard to see a high HR rate as sustainable with his generally fairly weak contact. 

One thing that does stand out, going along with the drop in pulling the ball, increase in groundball rate, and drop in HR rate, is that his launch angle has noticeably dropped. 

 chart.jpeg

Now here's one final problem - since Statcast started recording, the White Sox have had as low of a launch angle as any team in the league, bottom 5 in the league 6 times and bottom 10 in the other season. So, you've got a guy struggling badly in 2021 when he's going the other way, hitting the ball on the ground, and not elevating like he did beforehand. For whatever reason, the White Sox are really bad at launch angle, so if a low launch angle and not pulling the ball are big parts of why he was terrible in 2021, do we think the White Sox can fix that? Or is this a guy who is a particularly bad fit for the White Sox since his success was associated with a higher launch angle and that's a weak spot for the White Sox?

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3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I did spend some time going through the stats on his huge 2021 dropoff. McNeil has an excellent K-rate, but a generally low exit velocity. He doesn't hit the ball hard, but he makes contact. Compared to 2020 his walk rate did drop off somewhat, but his K-rate didn't spike and there was basically no real drop in his exit velocity compared to 2019, and his exit velocity was higher in 2021 than in 2020. 

What I do see is that there's a big change in the way he's hitting in 2021. There's a big dropoff in him pulling the ball and a big increase in him going the other way. There's a drop in hard contact and an increase in medium and soft contact. There was a career high in ground ball rate.

His BABIP went from being .340 in his first 3 seasons to .280 in 2021 - was that bad luck, or was that the poor quality of his contact? It's a little hard to believe his BABIP stayed above .330 all 3 of his first 3 years and 1000 PAs by luck. Perhaps a little bit unlucky in 2021, but the dropoff in BABIP fits with the dropoff in his contact quality.

He also went from a 15% HR/FB rate in 2019 to a 6.5% rate in 2021 - but its hard to see a high HR rate as sustainable with his generally fairly weak contact. 

One thing that does stand out, going along with the drop in pulling the ball, increase in groundball rate, and drop in HR rate, is that his launch angle has noticeably dropped. 

 chart.jpeg

Now here's one final problem - since Statcast started recording, the White Sox have had as low of a launch angle as any team in the league, bottom 5 in the league 6 times and bottom 10 in the other season. So, you've got a guy struggling badly in 2021 when he's going the other way, hitting the ball on the ground, and not elevating like he did beforehand. For whatever reason, the White Sox are really bad at launch angle, so if a low launch angle and not pulling the ball are big parts of why he was terrible in 2021, do we think the White Sox can fix that? Or is this a guy who is a particularly bad fit for the White Sox since his success was associated with a higher launch angle and that's a weak spot for the White Sox?

Post of the lockout. Well done anti-poop right here, folks.

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12 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I did spend some time going through the stats on his huge 2021 dropoff. McNeil has an excellent K-rate, but a generally low exit velocity. He doesn't hit the ball hard, but he makes contact. Compared to 2020 his walk rate did drop off somewhat, but his K-rate didn't spike and there was basically no real drop in his exit velocity compared to 2019, and his exit velocity was higher in 2021 than in 2020. 

What I do see is that there's a big change in the way he's hitting in 2021. There's a big dropoff in him pulling the ball and a big increase in him going the other way. There's a drop in hard contact and an increase in medium and soft contact. There was a career high in ground ball rate.

His BABIP went from being .340 in his first 3 seasons to .280 in 2021 - was that bad luck, or was that the poor quality of his contact? It's a little hard to believe his BABIP stayed above .330 all 3 of his first 3 years and 1000 PAs by luck. Perhaps a little bit unlucky in 2021, but the dropoff in BABIP fits with the dropoff in his contact quality.

He also went from a 15% HR/FB rate in 2019 to a 6.5% rate in 2021 - but its hard to see a high HR rate as sustainable with his generally fairly weak contact. 

One thing that does stand out, going along with the drop in pulling the ball, increase in groundball rate, and drop in HR rate, is that his launch angle has noticeably dropped. 

 chart.jpeg

Now here's one final problem - since Statcast started recording, the White Sox have had as low of a launch angle as any team in the league, bottom 5 in the league 6 times and bottom 10 in the other season. So, you've got a guy struggling badly in 2021 when he's going the other way, hitting the ball on the ground, and not elevating like he did beforehand. For whatever reason, the White Sox are really bad at launch angle, so if a low launch angle and not pulling the ball are big parts of why he was terrible in 2021, do we think the White Sox can fix that? Or is this a guy who is a particularly bad fit for the White Sox since his success was associated with a higher launch angle and that's a weak spot for the White Sox?

I don’t really consider his 46% GB rate that bad, and he was dealing with multiple leg injuries last year which I’m hoping accounts for his drop in speed and power.

But a 45ish% GB rate when your Krate is just 13% vs an Abreu/Sheets where it’s very annoying because of their power potential and higher krate and slower speed making a higher % of their PAs as outs.

Obviously we hope McNeils power output was due to his legs, but he wouldn’t be available otherwise. His defense rates as fantastic, however. So Lefthanded, high contact, great defense continues to check more boxes than most of our additions.

He did have attitude issues fighting with Lindor last year, so hopefully this isn’t acquiring a swisher.

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3 hours ago, bmags said:

I don’t really consider his 46% GB rate that bad, and he was dealing with multiple leg injuries last year which I’m hoping accounts for his drop in speed and power.

But a 45ish% GB rate when your Krate is just 13% vs an Abreu/Sheets where it’s very annoying because of their power potential and higher krate and slower speed making a higher % of their PAs as outs.

Obviously we hope McNeils power output was due to his legs, but he wouldn’t be available otherwise. His defense rates as fantastic, however. So Lefthanded, high contact, great defense continues to check more boxes than most of our additions.

He did have attitude issues fighting with Lindor last year, so hopefully this isn’t acquiring a swisher.

He's an Eaton/Swisher hybrid. No thanks. 

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54 minutes ago, macsandz said:

He's an Eaton/Swisher hybrid. No thanks. 

I’m confused, I thought the front office thought eatons attitude was what the front office thought was missing last offseason?

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Apparently McNeil was refusing the defensive shifts being ordered from the dugout. Lindor fought him in the tunnel over that. No thanks.

Personally, I'm curious what it would take to get Gavin Lux.

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41 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Apparently McNeil was refusing the defensive shifts being ordered from the dugout. Lindor fought him in the tunnel over that. No thanks.

Personally, I'm curious what it would take to get Gavin Lux.

Perfect fit, TLR doesn’t shift at all. 

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Mets are trying to dump him; terrible season last year; attitude.  Should be an extreme buy-low.

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8 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Mets are trying to dump him; terrible season last year; attitude.  Should be an extreme buy-low.

Or a “don’t buy at all.” 

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On 12/27/2021 at 11:57 AM, Dick Allen said:

You can say RH is a bad GM, but the one thing you can't say is he is a mouthbreather. Mouthbreathers don't graduate from Michigan, get a law degree at Harvard and an MBA at NU. 

I don't know.  I think they do.  Like, if they exercise, or something.  

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Because the sox have such specific needs, did not come close to filling them, I think you have to take on a guy with warts. I think our clubhouse is strong enough to handle stuff like that, and the mets clubhouse is specifically NOT. We don't even know if the shifts were placating some Lindor demand over actual defensive improvements, the mets are idiots. 

 

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24 minutes ago, bmags said:

Because the sox have such specific needs, did not come close to filling them, I think you have to take on a guy with warts. I think our clubhouse is strong enough to handle stuff like that, and the mets clubhouse is specifically NOT. We don't even know if the shifts were placating some Lindor demand over actual defensive improvements, the mets are idiots. 

 

Hahah.  This is fact that cannot be understated.  

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29 minutes ago, bmags said:

Because the sox have such specific needs, did not come close to filling them, I think you have to take on a guy with warts. I think our clubhouse is strong enough to handle stuff like that, and the mets clubhouse is specifically NOT. We don't even know if the shifts were placating some Lindor demand over actual defensive improvements, the mets are idiots. 

 

But supposedly they want SP( 4/5 starter) in return. 

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Just now, SCCWS said:

But supposedly they want SP( 4/5 starter) in return. 

The roster of teams that are willing to trade current, actual starting pitching for a starting second baseman isn't large. Sounds like a 3-way trade or the mets can receive salary relief to sign a 4/5 starter. 

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6 minutes ago, bmags said:

The roster of teams that are willing to trade current, actual starting pitching for a starting second baseman isn't large. Sounds like a 3-way trade or the mets can receive salary relief to sign a 4/5 starter. 

Does Steve Cohen care that much about salary relief? 

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On 12/29/2021 at 11:27 PM, Timmy U said:

Apparently McNeil was refusing the defensive shifts being ordered from the dugout. Lindor fought him in the tunnel over that. No thanks.

Personally, I'm curious what it would take to get Gavin Lux.

Sign me up.  I also like the idea of Lux but there is no better fit than McNeil.  I'll take his few warts and hope for a bounceback.  

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33 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Does Steve Cohen care that much about salary relief? 

If not, then why do they care about specifically getting a “fourth or fifth” starter, while free agency exists.

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