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24 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Atlanta wasn't a better team than the White Sox at any point during the 2021 season.

Didn't have to be. The saw their needs and addressed them. They were absolutely fortunate that LAD & SF faced each other first, and they were fortunate to not have to face McCullers.

But they put themselves into position to take advantage of their good luck by addressing their actual needs at the TDL, instead of doing what RH did.

24 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think what you said is setting themselves back a year because I gave examples of how they did what you said.

I view "setting themselves back a year" as meaning "deferring the opportunity to improve by a year." 

I disagree, in that there won't be the same opportunities at this TDL as there were last TDL. I think the same about this offseason vs next offseason.

They've squandered assets on things they didn't need. Players get older year over year. And a team's needs changes year over year. Players salaries increase year over year.

 

And thats why I see it more as "shortening the window," rather than "setting themselves back a year."

19 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Trading for Pollock and Haseley this offseason wasn’t the front office admitting they needed OF help?

Any of us could have seen this as being a bigger need than a closer the second they cut Eaton loose last season. Better choices could and should have been made by a FO with this level of experience, IMO.

And, color me doubtful that an old man like Pollock will succeed where other old men have failed. Im hopeful that I can have a hearty plateful of crow later this season, but I'm also agist against old ballplayers.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete
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12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Highly debatable . Record wise sure but if you plot their progression from what they did from 2018-2020 their record was a result of an injury to one of the best players in baseball and the 2 time Achilles tears to Soroka in 2020 and again in 2021. They rebuilt their whole outfield smartly and it paid off even better than expected.

Not debatable at all. It wasn't even close. 

They got lucky. People have a real hard time accepting and understanding that luck plays a large part of postseason baseball. People always want too look for purpose and reason and some grander plan. It was none of that, they got lucky. Guys ran hot and they won. Period, end of story.

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7 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Didn't have to be. The saw their needs and addressed them. They were absolutely fortunate that LAD & SF faced each other first, and they were fortunate to not have to face McCullers.

But they put themselves into position to take advantage of their good luck by addressing their actual needs at the TDL, instead of doing what RH did.

I view "setting themselves back a year" as meaning "deferring the opportunity to improve by a year." 

I disagree, in that there won't be the same opportunities at this TDL as there were last TDL. I think the same about this offseason vs next offseason.

They've squandered assets on things they didn't need. Players get older year over year. And a team's needs changes year over year. Players salaries increase year over year.

 

And thats why I see it more as "shortening the window," rather than "setting themselves back a year."

Any of use could have seen this as being a bigger need than a closer the second they cut Eaton loose last season. Better choices could and should have been made by a FO with this level of experience, IMO.

And, color me doubtful that an old man like Pollock will succeed where other old men have failed. Im hopeful that I can have a hearty plateful of crow later this season, but I'm also agist against old ballplayers.

The Braves had a lot more needs than the White sox. 

It's called luck, pal. Atlanta bullpen wasn't as good as sox bullpen but dominated in the playoffs. Atlanta acquired guys similar to cesar Hernandez in value and upside, but their cesar Hernandez's had well timed hot streaks in the playoffs. I dogged the cesar and kimbrel moves as much as anyone.

Atlanta did not enter the playoffs with a better roster than the White sox. That's the job of a front office. The sox had a better team and they lost. It happens.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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9 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I don't think the questions was could they finish it off. That has only been the question the last 2 years.

Prior to that 95% of the posters here did not want to allow this FO to attempt the rebuild as they didn't trust them. 

It's the same old complaining no matter what happens. KW won a world series but is was lick and not him he sucks. The FO can't  do a rebuild because their all idiots. The build a good team but can't finish it. 

If they win a world series but only one like the Cubs or Astros it will go back to them being idiots but lucky and they couldn't capitalize on the team.

Now before all the water carrying comments start coming, do I agree with every move. No. But to say they can't acquire players to win isn't correct either.

That was always my question since the rebuild started so no I didn't trust them from the start. They didn't address a lot of things that were wrong with the organization until well after the rebuild started. They were always college heavy in the draft, nor did they prioritize middle of the field players. They didn't spend on young guys in the Int'l draft and traded away money. They lagged behind in biomechanics and high tech equipment for development purposes. Then Covid and the looming strike which I was mentioning back in 2020 as obstacles . Then Jerry completely circumvented all attempts to hire a manager by giving the job to TLR. Plus no contracts over $90M yet and the results of the front office since the 2021 trade deadline.

I don't care who thinks I'm negative and I won't describe you as carrying water. I just am very good at seeing a complete picture of things that have always stood in the Sox way since the Reindorf reign started.  If you want to focus on how wonderful they have done in trading good players for the guys who have got us to this point  that's fine by me. I didn't just start saying what I'm saying. I've saying it a long time. I said the Sox wouldn't sign Conforto back in November or December.

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15 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Didn't have to be. The saw their needs and addressed them. They were absolutely fortunate that LAD & SF faced each other first, and they were fortunate to not have to face McCullers.

But they put themselves into position to take advantage of their good luck by addressing their actual needs at the TDL, instead of doing what RH did.

I view "setting themselves back a year" as meaning "deferring the opportunity to improve by a year." 

I disagree, in that there won't be the same opportunities at this TDL as there were last TDL. I think the same about this offseason vs next offseason.

They've squandered assets on things they didn't need. Players get older year over year. And a team's needs changes year over year. Players salaries increase year over year.

 

And thats why I see it more as "shortening the window," rather than "setting themselves back a year."

Any of us could have seen this as being a bigger need than a closer the second they cut Eaton loose last season. Better choices could and should have been made by a FO with this level of experience, IMO.

And, color me doubtful that an old man like Pollock will succeed where other old men have failed. Im hopeful that I can have a hearty plateful of crow later this season, but I'm also agist against old ballplayers.

Yet, you were just praising the Braves acquisitions of old men like Duvall, Soler, and Rosario.

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3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Braves had a lot more needs than the White sox. 

It's called luck, pal. Atlanta bullpen wasn't as good as sox bullpen but dominated in the playoffs.

Atlanta did not enter the playoffs with a better roster than the White sox. That's the job of a front office. The sox had a better team and they lost. It happens.

Oh goody, I get called "pal!"

 

I've already addressed their luck factor. But, they needed OFers, so they got some. The SOX org has needed a RFer since JD lost his ability to move. The current team has needed a RFer since they traded for Mazara. Instead, they got an old, expensive closer who never pitched in a setup role prior to coming here.

 

And, who cares if the SOX bullpen is/was better than Atlanta's? They decided it was "good enough," and addressed their needs. Addressing your needs puts you into position to take advantage of good luck. And we can show this in a clear example:

 

Stupidly trading for a closer you don't need means that Kimbrel pitches in game 2 at Houston, instead of Tepera or Kopech. It also means that TLR has Leury playing RF instead of an actual OFer.

Had RH made some attempt to address the now 15 year hole in RF, an actual OFer catches that ball that Leury missed. Whats more, Kimbrel never pitches in that game, and the series goes back to Chicago 1-1.

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10 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That was always my question since the rebuild started so no I didn't trust them from the start. They didn't address a lot of things that were wrong with the organization until well after the rebuild started. They were always college heavy in the draft, nor did they prioritize middle of the field players. They didn't spend on young guys in the Int'l draft and traded away money. They lagged behind in biomechanics and high tech equipment for development purposes. Then Covid and the looming strike which I was mentioning back in 2020 as obstacles . Then Jerry completely circumvented all attempts to hire a manager by giving the job to TLR. Plus no contracts over $90M yet and the results of the front office since the 2021 trade deadline.

I don't care who thinks I'm negative and I won't describe you as carrying water. I just am very good at seeing a complete picture of things that have always stood in the Sox way since the Reindorf reign started.  If you want to focus on how wonderful they have done in trading good players for the guys who have got us to this point  that's fine by me. I didn't just start saying what I'm saying. I've saying it a long time. I said the Sox wouldn't sign Conforto back in November or December.

Why is it an either/or? Can’t we credit them for all they’ve done well while criticize them for what they’ve done poorly? Too many extremes here from some posters while the truth is somewhere in the middle. Up to this point, I’d give the front office a solid B for how they’ve handled the rebuild. The next 2-3 years will dictate whether that B turns into an A or a C.

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2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Oh goody, I get called "pal!"

 

I've already addressed their luck factor. But, they needed OFers, so they got some. The SOX org has needed a RFer since JD lost his ability to move. The current team has needed a RFer since they traded for Mazara. Instead, they got an old, expensive closer who never pitched in a setup role prior to coming here.

 

And, who cares if the SOX bullpen is/was better than Atlanta's? They decided it was "good enough," and addressed their needs. Addressing your needs puts you into position to take advantage of good luck. And we can show this in a clear example:

 

Stupidly trading for a closer you don't need means that Kimbrel pitches in game 2 at Houston, instead of Tepera or Kopech. It also means that TLR has Leury playing RF instead of an actual OFer.

Had RH made some attempt to address the now 15 year hole in RF, an actual OFer catches that ball that Leury missed. Whats more, Kimbrel never pitches in that game, and the series goes back to Chicago 1-1.

There are no amount of trade deadline moves that the FO could have made last year that would have gotten them past the Astros. Convince me otherwise.

You really think if the Sox added what the Braves did at the trade deadline that it would have put them over the top in a series against the Astros?

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5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Yet, you were just praising the Braves acquisitions of old men like Duvall, Soler, and Rosario.

Yes. A TDL move to address an actual need =/= an  move. At the TDL, a FO often "gets what they can," because there's no TDL free agency during midseason.

Atlanta did not go into the season with those guys as their OD plans. RH has planned on: Encarnacion, Eaton, Harrison, and now Pollock as OD plans, despite other options being available in free agency.

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Just now, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yes. A TDL move to address an actual need =/= an  move. At the TDL, a FO often "gets what they can," because there's no TDL free agency during midseason.

Atlanta did not go into the season with those guys as their OD plans. RH has planned on: Encarnacion, Eaton, Harrison, and now Pollock as OD plans, despite other options being available in free agency.

So if the Sox added those three guys at the deadline last year they beat the Astros?

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1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

There are no amount of trade deadline moves that the FO could have made last year that would have gotten them past the Astros. Convince me otherwise.

You really think if the Sox added what the Braves did at the trade deadline that it would have put them over the top in a series against the Astros?

I think that the OFers Atlanta acquired at the TDL out them in better position than adding RH a closer they didn't need.

I also thought that trading from the 26 man roster was suicide.

 

Convince us otherwise, because the Commissioner's Trophy isn't in Chicago.

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2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I think that the OFers Atlanta acquired at the TDL out them in better position than adding RH a closer they didn't need.

I also thought that trading from the 26 man roster was suicide.

 

Convince us otherwise, because the Commissioner's Trophy isn't in Chicago.

You didn’t answer my question because you know there are no amount of deadline moves that the FO could have made last year to get them past the Astros. But that’s doesn’t fit your narrative.

simply put, the 2021 Sox did not match up well with the 2021 Astros. It’s that simple. It happens.

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26 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

So the Braves lost in the first round of the playoffs during the first two years of their contention window…isn’t that exactly what the White Sox did the last two years? What am I missing?

Your missing the progress each and every year. Don't say I didn't warn you when the Sox don't make the ALCS this year. They also had  2 Superstars in Acuna and Freeman who both signed contracts @ $100M and higher. Do the Sox have anyone who can be called a superstar or anyone who signed big contracts ?

They signed free agent Nov, 2020 Charlie Morton Morton, 37,(at the time) battled some shoulder fatigue and was limited to nine starts and 38 innings in 2020, pitching to a 4.74 ERA in that short time.  Hmm shoulder fatigue, kind of sounds like Rodon . Braves made the NLCS that year then they resigned him for 2022. What Starting pitcher did the White Sox sign after losing in the playoffs and losing Rodon with Keuchel and Kopech huge question marks and no minor league depth ? They resigned Lynn before that because Keuchel was looking terrible and Rodon was about to become gassed.

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43 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And the Sox haven’t progress each of the last four seasons (2019 to today)? What are you even arguing?

That the Sox FO isnt as smart as the Braves, Cubs and Astros, they don't sign big contracts, they don't draft well and they don't care about winning. Each of those clubs made the moves necessary to advance in different ways and I'm not seeing an advancement for this year because they didn't allocate resources well and they have gone backwards since the 2021 TDL . How many times do I have to repeat myself to you ?

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42 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Not debatable at all. It wasn't even close. 

They got lucky. People have a real hard time accepting and understanding that luck plays a large part of postseason baseball. People always want too look for purpose and reason and some grander plan. It was none of that, they got lucky. Guys ran hot and they won. Period, end of story.

Well I'm debating it so that makes it debatable. All the moves they made prior to 2021 led them to where they were. Injuries forced their hand and they dealt with it. Was it lucky that all 4 guys they got performed? Sure there was luck involved with that but they identified their needs and the moves paid off. Did that happen for the Sox in 2021 ? Nope . Period . End of story.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
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27 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Why is it an either/or? Can’t we credit them for all they’ve done well while criticize them for what they’ve done poorly? Too many extremes here from some posters while the truth is somewhere in the middle. Up to this point, I’d give the front office a solid B for how they’ve handled the rebuild. The next 2-3 years will dictate whether that B turns into an A or a C.

It's not either/or . Do you even read my posts? I gave them credit for getting us to this point.

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3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's not either/or . Do you even read my posts? I gave them credit for getting us to this point.

So what is the different skill required to acquire players to get to this point and acquiring players to make the next step?

It there a different type of player that can take the Sox to the next level as opposed to the player that can make the team good at this point?

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46 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Oh goody, I get called "pal!"

 

I've already addressed their luck factor. But, they needed OFers, so they got some. The SOX org has needed a RFer since JD lost his ability to move. The current team has needed a RFer since they traded for Mazara. Instead, they got an old, expensive closer who never pitched in a setup role prior to coming here.

 

And, who cares if the SOX bullpen is/was better than Atlanta's? They decided it was "good enough," and addressed their needs. Addressing your needs puts you into position to take advantage of good luck. And we can show this in a clear example:

 

Stupidly trading for a closer you don't need means that Kimbrel pitches in game 2 at Houston, instead of Tepera or Kopech. It also means that TLR has Leury playing RF instead of an actual OFer.

Had RH made some attempt to address the now 15 year hole in RF, an actual OFer catches that ball that Leury missed. Whats more, Kimbrel never pitches in that game, and the series goes back to Chicago 1-1.

Leury Garcia had the biggest hit of the entire post-season for the White Sox. He had 4 RBI's and 3 runs scored in 4 games.

Cesar Hernandez had an 831 OPS in the playoffs.

The Sox lost because their SP - which was a strength all year and absolutely was not going to be a place they looked to acquire more talent from at the deadline - fell flat on their face. No one was saying the Sox should have acquired SP's at the deadline, and no one was demanding they don't pitch Giolito, Lynn or Cease in the playoffs.

The Sox could have acquried Mike Trout and Ozzie Albies at the trade deadline to fill RF and 2B and they still would have gotten destroyed by the Astros. 

While I despised the process and decision making that led us to Cesar and Kimbrel, it also had no impact on the playoff results and did not change the fact that the White Sox were better than the Braves before the playoffs and once the playoffs started. You can applaud the Braves moves because you appear to pick and chose when you're results oriented and when your process oriented. The Braves got lucky, end of story.

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3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Leury Garcia had the biggest hit of the entire post-season for the White Sox. He had 4 RBI's and 3 runs scored in 4 games.

Cesar Hernandez had an 831 OPS in the playoffs.

The Sox lost because their SP - which was a strength all year and absolutely was not going to be a place they looked to acquire more talent from at the deadline - fell flat on their face. No one was saying the Sox should have acquired SP's at the deadline, and no one was demanding they don't pitch Giolito, Lynn or Cease in the playoffs.

The Sox could have acquried Mike Trout and Ozzie Albies at the trade deadline to fill RF and 2B and they still would have gotten destroyed by the Astros. 

While I despised the process and decision making that led us to Cesar and Kimbrel, it also had no impact on the playoff results and did not change the fact that the White Sox were better than the Braves before the playoffs and once the playoffs started. You can applaud the Braves moves because you appear to pick and chose when you're results oriented and when your process oriented. The Braves got lucky, end of story.

100% this. Couldn't have said it any better myself.

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32 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Your missing the progress each and every year. Don't say I didn't warn you when the Sox don't make the ALCS this year. They also had  2 Superstars in Acuna and Freeman who both signed contracts @ $100M and higher. Do the Sox have anyone who can be called a superstar or anyone who signed big contracts ?

They signed free agent Nov, 2020 Charlie Morton Morton, 37,(at the time) battled some shoulder fatigue and was limited to nine starts and 38 innings in 2020, pitching to a 4.74 ERA in that short time.  Hmm shoulder fatigue, kind of sounds like Rodon . Braves made the NLCS that year then they resigned him for 2022. What Starting pitcher did the White Sox sign after losing in the playoffs and losing Rodon with Keuchel and Kopech huge question marks and no minor league depth ? They resigned Lynn before that because Keuchel was looking terrible and Rodon was about to become gassed.

Yes, the Sox have BETTER players than the Braves. My goodness, what are you guys even rambling about.

If Luis Robert was a free agent tomorrow he'd sign a contract 2 times as large as Freddie Freemans. 

Yoan Moncada 2021 fWAR - 4.5
Freddie Freeman 2021 fWAR - 4.5

White Sox offensive fWAR 2021 - 25.2
Braves offensive fWAR 2021 - 22.1

White SOx offensive fWAR 2020 - 13.4 (best in baseball)
Braves offensive fWAR 2020 - 11.0
 

White Sox pitcher fWAR 2021 - 27.1 (best in baseball!)
BRaves pitcher fWAR 2021 - 16.0

The narrative that the Braves were anywhere near as good as the White Sox the past two years is a complete joke. The White Sox front office put a team together with BETTER players by a long shot, but on Soxtalk we have people pandering to the Braves front office because they acquired Adam freaking Duval at the trade deadline; a guy with a very similar carrer and value trajectory as the bum Cesar Hernandez the Sox acquired. Cesar Hernandez had actually been better for a longer period of time.

People need to learn to seperate outcomes of small-sample post-seasons from the overall quality of a team and their process.

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36 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That the Sox FO isnt as smart as the Braves, Cubs and Astros, they don't sign big contracts, they don't draft well and they don't care about winning. Each of those clubs made the moves necessary to advance in different ways and I'm not seeing an advancement for this year because they didn't allocate resources well and they have gone backwards since the 2021 TDL . How many times do I have to repeat myself to you ?

Have the Sox not improved each of the last three seasons? We don’t know what this season will bring yet so no point in discussing it. Did they improve from 2019 to 2020 to 2021? Yes or no?

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31 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Well I'm debating it so that makes it debatable. All the moves they made prior to 2021 led them to where they were. Injuries forced their hand and they dealt with it. Was it lucky that all 4 guys they got performed? Sure there was luck involved with that but they identified their needs and the moves paid off. Did that happen for the Sox in 2021 ? Nope . Period . End of story.

In what world was a White Sox "need" in 2021 at the TDL a starting pitcher? Who in their right mind would have argued that? 

The Sox had 4 starters in the top 20 in baseball in WAR. The Sox were never going to acquire a SP who was going to pitch in the playoffs. It wouldn't have made any sense. FOUR of the TOP 20 starters in baseball. Their strength failed in the playoffs, so they lost. The Braves got production from a bunch of bums, and saw their bullpen (who were middle of the pack 14-16th in all of baseball) dominate. There was no logic or rhyme/reason to the Braves title and it certainly shouldn't be a barometer for which the Sox front office builds around:

"be one of the worst teams in the playoffs and get lucky!"

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12 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Leury Garcia had the biggest hit of the entire post-season for the White Sox. He had 4 RBI's and 3 runs scored in 4 games.

Cesar Hernandez had an 831 OPS in the playoffs.

The Sox lost because their SP - which was a strength all year and absolutely was not going to be a place they looked to acquire more talent from at the deadline - fell flat on their face. No one was saying the Sox should have acquired SP's at the deadline, and no one was demanding they don't pitch Giolito, Lynn or Cease in the playoffs.

The Sox could have acquried Mike Trout and Ozzie Albies at the trade deadline to fill RF and 2B and they still would have gotten destroyed by the Astros. 

While I despised the process and decision making that led us to Cesar and Kimbrel, it also had no impact on the playoff results and did not change the fact that the White Sox were better than the Braves before the playoffs and once the playoffs started. You can applaud the Braves moves because you appear to pick and chose when you're results oriented and when your process oriented. The Braves got lucky, end of story.

💯

exactly my point as well. Their best pitchers simply did not match up with the Astros offense. Tough break. It happens. 

Edited by JUSTgottaBELIEVE
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7 minutes ago, ptatc said:

So what is the different skill required to acquire players to get to this point and acquiring players to make the next step?

It there a different type of player that can take the Sox to the next level as opposed to the player that can make the team good at this point?

All three teams among the Astro's, Braves and Cubs did it in different ways. The Sox got it right at the beginning because they got a lot of good young talent. That talent has been inconsistent due to injuries, Covid regression or what have you. They signed free agents Grandal and Hendriks to address needs. Hahns strength has never been trading for pieces for the betterment of the team. I don't know if its their pro scouting or lack of analytics or what. I'm not behind the scenes. I'm just commenting on how things are currently developing based on a series of observations on how the club was run in the past.

The Braves either got lucky or were smart in making the trades they did to advance to where they were and put them over the top in a year that wasn't going well. They also had 2 well paid superstars in Freeman and Acuna. The Sox got unlucky or were dumb in 2021 at the TDL and without $100M superstars.

The Cubs spent a ton of money on Heyward and Lester. The Sox don't do that.

The Astros drafted well and their 2017 middling payroll had great young players who were making nothing and still had a decent farm system ( Correa, Springer, Bregman Altuve) which allowed them to trade for Verlander who put them over the top. The Sox payroll is high , their farm is barren and our position players do not have the defensive capabilities with the combined bats of Bregman. Altuve, Springer and Correa.

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2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

All three teams among the Astro's, Braves and Cubs did it in different ways. The Sox got it right at the beginning because they got a lot of good young talent. That talent has been inconsistent due to injuries, Covid regression or what have you. They signed free agents Grandal and Hendriks to address needs. Hahns strength has never been trading for pieces for the betterment of the team. I don't know if its their pro scouting or lack of analytics or what. I'm not behind the scenes. I'm just commenting on how things are currently developing based on a series of observations on how the club was run in the past.

The Braves either got lucky or were smart in making the trades they did to advance to where they were and put them over the top in a year that wasn't going well. They also had 2 well paid superstars in Freeman and Acuna. The Sox got unlucky or were dumb in 2021 at the TDL and without $100M superstars.

The Cubs spent a ton of money on Heyward and Lester. The Sox don't do that.

The Astros drafted well and their 2017 middling payroll had great young players who were making nothing and still had a decent farm system ( Correa, Springer, Bregman Altuve) which allowed them to trade for Verlander who put them over the top. The Sox payroll is high , their farm is barren and our position players do not have the defensive capabilities with the combined bats of Bregman. Altuve, Springer and Correa.

Acuna has maybe the most team friendly deal in baseball outside of his buddy Ozzie Albies who was legitimately defrauded. Freddie Freeman signed an extension for 8 years 135 million (16 million per). While both are larger than deals the Sox have signed, admittedly, it's really not all that different than the Robert extension. 

Saying the Sox don't have 100 MM superstars just makes no sense. Sox have players every bit as good as the stars on the Braves, they're just earlier in their contracts and don't make as much money. Also, Anaheim has two guys probably worth 700 million between them and they aren't even a playoff team.

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  • Heads22 changed the title to Lance Lynn has slight tendon tear, 4 weeks no throwing off mound

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