It's time to put Jose out to pasture

[turnin' two]

2 hours ago, ron883 said:

If this continues into next year, it will be a Brett Favre - Aaron Rodgers situation between Abreu and Vaughn

Hmmm, seems a bit different to me, as you know, both Abreu and Vaughn can play together.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 6/14/2022 at 12:59 PM, Texsox said:

Is there a statistical difference if a LH gets a hit off a RHP instead of a RH? It seems like what we want is anyone who can hit RHP? 

I think you have to remember is that RHH who hit RHP good fatten up on stiffs but when you get to the playoffs and face better pitching it's just not easy for RHH to do as well. The statistical advantage of a LHH against RHP helps a lot and makes the pitcher change his approach and if you have enough of them in the lineup a pitcher who has to alter his approach from time to time can't get into a groove by throwing a bunch of sliders away to RHP. The more you make a pitcher RHP face LHH the better chance that they will make a mistake to a RHH because they haven't gotten into a groove spotting the slider.

A pitcher might change where he stands on the rubber when facing opposite handed hitters  or do other things differently . So the more he has to do those things the less time he'll have to get into that groove against so many same handed hitters.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I think you have to remember is that RHH who hit RHP good fatten up on stiffs but when you get to the playoffs and face better pitching it's just not easy for RHH to do as well. The statistical advantage of a LHH against RHP helps a lot and makes the pitcher change his approach and if you have enough of them in the lineup a pitcher who has to alter his approach from time to time can't get into a groove by throwing a bunch of sliders away to RHP. The more you make a pitcher RHP face LHH the better chance that they will make a mistake to a RHH because they haven't gotten into a groove spotting the slider.

A pitcher might change where he stands on the rubber when facing opposite handed hitters  or do other things differently . So the more he has to do those things the less time he'll have to get into that groove against so many same handed hitters.

Are there statistics available that support this? Wouldn’t left handed hitters that hit RHP also generally feast on poor RHP and struggle against good RHP? I don’t see how handedness makes a difference personally.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 6/14/2022 at 1:15 PM, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Grandal had his best offensive season ever last season. Monday morning quarterbacking to say this was the year he would fall off. Moncada had an OPS+ of 116 last season (compared to 14 this season). If you are arguing that Grandal’s dropoff was inevitable due to age then Moncada and Eloy should be entering their prime.

How convenient it is for you to forget he had less than 400 PA and less than 300 AB's because of his constant knee problems and his age last year. So no it isnt monday morning quarterbacking to say his knees are a problem that has contributed to his predictable age and injury related decline.

Eloy hasnt put up even close to a full season since his 22 yr old rookie season in 2019. Less than 300 AB's and each season since then because of injuries. He can't be counted on to stay on the field. What good is his prime when he can't stay on the field and actually produce like we all thought he could. . With all that power he still hasn't figured out how to elevate the ball. He's a GB hitter extraordinaire !

Moncada is pretty much a total mystery to everyone and we might never see a season again from him like he had in 2019.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

23 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Are there statistics available that support this? Wouldn’t left handed hitters that hit RHP also generally feast on poor RHP and struggle against good RHP? I don’t see how handedness makes a difference personally.

Yes LHH would fatten up on poor RHP .

But it's pretty common baseball knowledge that if you do something more often the easier it is easier to get into a groove. It's why you practice so much in any sport. So the more you can mess with how a pitcher approaches LHH and RHH the better off you are. It's the same reason why pitchers try not to pitch the ball at the same speed and throw it in the same location. You see something too much and you adjust to it. Same reason why hitter's step out of the box to try to disrupt a pitchers timing and prevent him from getting into a groove. Same thing applies automatically when a pitcher has to jump from a LHH to a RHH and he has to alter the things he does on the mound. The worse you are as pitcher the more those things affect you. You want pitchers to make mistakes and it's easier to get those mistakes when you disrupt their routine. Just a few mistakes can be the difference between winning or losing.

Edited June 17, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[GermanSoxFan]

so much common baseball knowledge has been proven wrong over the past two decades that I don’t put much stock into that

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 hours ago, GermanSoxFan said:

so much common baseball knowledge has been proven wrong over the past two decades that I don’t put much stock into that

SO are you saying a team is better off using all RHH 's as long as they can hit RHP ? Or is a team better off using all LHH who can hit RHP since somewhere around 73% of all pitcher in MLB are RH ? Do you think making the pitcher change how he does things on the mound has no effect at all on how he pitches?

The great pitchers maybe not, but all you need is one mistake pitch to change the outcome of a game. Lesser pitchers could make even more mistakes and if those mistakes get punished you win more games .

The better your LHH are, the more they can punish those mistakes because you usually see opposite handed pitching better than you see same handed ones. That is why players switch hit. It's also why when a manager pinch hits it's usually with a guy who hits with the opposite hand than the pitcher, unless on the rare occasion someone hits same handed pitcher better.That is the major reason why most hitters hit better against opposite handed pitchers. This is why a lineup has to be balanced and you see teams try to load up against our RHP by stacking the lineup with LHH's.

These things have not changed in the history of baseball nor will they because the ability to see pitches better is based on angles and line of sight.

Edited June 17, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

you can see Jose Abreu's career statistics against every pitcher he's faced here:

https://www.rotowire.com/baseball/player-vs-pitcher.php?id=11341

 

The whole "he only fattens up on bad RHP" is 100% pure bullshit. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm said:

you can see Jose Abreu's career statistics against every pitcher he's faced here:

https://www.rotowire.com/baseball/player-vs-pitcher.php?id=11341

 

The whole "he only fattens up on bad RHP" is 100% pure bullshit. 

Jose Abreu is RH so I'm not where you saw anyone say he fattens up on RHP. Like most RHH they are better against LHP and the majority of LHH are better against RHP . Abreu, Vaughn and the majority of good hitters do better against opposite handed pitchers.

[HOFHurt35]

Wow, does Abreu own Justin Verlander. 😲

Edited June 17, 2022 by HOFHurt35

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Wow, does Abreu own Justin Verlander. 😲

Yea he does. Sometimes pitchers own you and sometimes you own certain pitchers. No one really knows why. Maybe Jose has just got some uncharacteristic meatballs from Verlander or run into Jose when he's hot. But I think there is a theory out there that Jose does pretty good against some very good pitchers. I don't know how well that stands up when tested but Stone always talks about it.

[CentralChamps21]

46 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yea he does. Sometimes pitchers own you and sometimes you own certain pitchers. No one really knows why. Maybe Jose has just got some uncharacteristic meatballs from Verlander or run into Jose when he's hot. But I think there is a theory out there that Jose does pretty good against some very good pitchers. I don't know how well that stands up when tested but Stone always talks about it.

My guess as to the reason why is that very few of the times Jose has faced Verlander have been in April/May.

[southsider2k5]

 

[Boopa1219]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:23 AM, South Side Hit Men said:

If you can get anyone to bite, Eloy is (and has been since 2020) the player to shop. More trade value than these two old veterans, with a high likelihood of endless injuries and disappointing play based on the past three seasons. Robert and Vaughn are younger and have more upside at this juncture, Yoan and Tim far more valuable in terms of their positions.

In my "offseason plan", I proposed trading Eloy and Mercedes to Miami, who had rumored interest in both players, for one of their pitchers. Would still love to see what they could get pitching wise for Eloy.

I absolutely agree with this and hopefully he comes back and play well to raise his value but I’d absolutely float him out there if I were Hahn. If Miami offered Max Meyer or Edward Cabrera  and Trevor Rodgers, Id absolutely make the move. 

[RibbieRubarb]

*cough*

[oldsox]

Hahn's biggest post season decision will be what to do with Jose, since he will be a free agent.

[JoeC]

5 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Hahn's biggest post season decision will be what to do with Jose, since he will be a free agent.

Knowing this org, I feel like this is not going to be Hahn's decision to make.

[oldsox]

Jumping forward to the off-season, Jose might ask for another multi-year deal, and Hahn should say No.  Then, I gotta wonder if Hahn offers a QO, trying to get a draft pick for Jose, like he did not do for Carlos

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, JoeC said:

Knowing this org, I feel like this is not going to be Hahn's decision to make.

Right or wrong, If Jose wants to come back, he’ll be back. Likely for too much $. 

[MiddleCoastBias]

5 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Jumping forward to the off-season, Jose might ask for another multi-year deal, and Hahn should say No.  Then, I gotta wonder if Hahn offers a QO, trying to get a draft pick for Jose, like he did not do for Carlos

The new CBA nixed qualifying offers, so they're no more.

But as a thought piece, I don't think this org would have offered any way out of deference/loyalty to Abreu given how much they deflate a player's value when turned down.

[Bob Sacamano]

7 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

The new CBA nixed qualifying offers, so they're no more.

But as a thought piece, I don't think this org would have offered any way out of deference/loyalty to Abreu given how much they deflate a player's value when turned down.

Yeah the QO is gone, however he already was offered and accepted it a few years ago so he wouldn't qualified to be offered one this year.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

The new CBA nixed qualifying offers, so they're no more.

But as a thought piece, I don't think this org would have offered any way out of deference/loyalty to Abreu given how much they deflate a player's value when turned down.

There are currently no qualifying offers but they might come back if the union doesn’t give the owners an international draft next year.

But, Abreu already had a qualifying offer given to him and you can do that with a guy once per career if they do come back.

[Jack Parkman]

The biggest choice with Abreu is actually what they do with him a month from now. 

[MiddleCoastBias]

32 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

There are currently no qualifying offers but they might come back if the union doesn’t give the owners an international draft next year.

But, Abreu already had a qualifying offer given to him and you can do that with a guy once per career if they do come back.

Man, you guys are great, baseball has such an archaic rules structure and I can never keep up.

[Greg Hibbard]

Since signing his last contract:

.279/.361/.502/.863

70 extra base hits per 162 games (36 doubles, 1 triple, 33 homers/162)

67 BB per 162 games

121 RBI per 162 games 

Hard to argue his contract hasn't been worth it.

Vaughn has flourished offensively despite not playing his natural position, and Jose has been as good as he has throughout his entire career.