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What good is a retool if you trade your best players?

Last I heard pitching is overpriced.  Why trade Gio or Lynn? 

Trading is one thing but there is also trying to replace.

None of this seems to work under Hahn.

You must think Bill Polian is the GM.

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9 hours ago, fathom said:

I like my idea of Vaughn for Chisholm, but that’s just because Vaughn’s defense is always going to make his bat less valuable than it should be.

If Eloy embraces his future as a first base/DH guy, Im down.

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7 hours ago, GreenSox said:

It won't, but it should start in midseason.
And while Giolito has an extra year,  part of a creative retool is to think a few moves ahead.  And that extra year raises his value a lot.  And waiting until December reduces his value a lot.  
Boston, San Franciso, Milwaukee and maybe Tampa could use Abreu
Pretty much any contender could use Giolito.
Perhaps something for a reliever.
Pollock et al for just salary relief.


 

I finally came to this conclusion too.

As much as I distrust the ability of Hahn do to do well in trades, there are some guys who can get good pieces back. Abreu, Lynn, Giolito, Hendriks, Graveman, Kelly, Pollock , Harrison, even Burger and Sheets could get something. Target young fast 2 way players and pitching. Take any offers you get fro these kind of players even if it looks like you are getting the worst of the trade. Too many DH/1b types and not enough pitching talent in the upper minors. Give up on paying big money for relief pitching and dump TLR.

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1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I finally came to this conclusion too.

As much as I distrust the ability of Hahn do to do well in trades, there are some guys who can get good pieces back. Abreu, Lynn, Giolito, Hendriks, Graveman, Kelly, Pollock , Harrison, even Burger and Sheets could get something. Target young fast 2 way players and pitching. Take any offers you get fro these kind of players even if it looks like you are getting the worst of the trade. Too many DH/1b types and not enough pitching talent in the upper minors. Give up on paying big money for relief pitching and dump TLR.

Young fast 2 way players aren't on the market.  They aren't as easy to find as most people on this board think.

If you shred the bullpen like that who do you replace them with? There aren't that many internal options as we've been witness too.

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42 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Young fast 2 way players aren't on the market.  They aren't as easy to find as most people on this board think.

If you shred the bullpen like that who do you replace them with? There aren't that many internal options as we've been witness too.

They are always on the market if they can play 2 ways they don't necessarily have to be fast but the better ones usually are. Contenders don't need them because they aren't ready. They need MLB talent.

You replace them with the guys you traded for. That's why you trade them. Or you just pick up others trash. It's not like you're trying to win many more games this season after you make the trades. You make one for one trades or get 2 pieces for some of them. There will be enough bodies.

World Championships mean a lot to some teams.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

They are always on the market if they can play 2 ways they don't necessarily have to be fast but the better ones usually are. Contenders don't need them because they aren't ready. They need MLB talent.

You replace them with the guys you traded for. That's why you trade them. Or you just pick up others trash. It's not like you're trying to win many more games this season after you make the trades. You make one for one trades or get 2 pieces for some of them. There will be enough bodies.

World Championships mean a lot to some teams.

If they are trading bullpen pieces for other bullpen pieces what's the point? They may not win this year but they won't next year without some talent in the pen. With the ones you're trading the o ly one left is Bummer 

The good two way players aren't usually on the market even for WS contenders at least nothing close to MLB ready.

Edited by ptatc

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It’s cool, Moncada fouled a ball off his ankle - must mean he’s toast for a month or two.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ptatc said:

If they are trading bullpen pieces for other bullpen pieces what's the point? They may not win this year but they won't next year without some talent in the pen. With the ones you're trading the o ly one left is Bummer 

The good two way players aren't usually on the market even for WS contenders at least nothing close to MLB ready.

The point is to get younger and cheaper. How much longer do you think some of these veteran players are going to last. Trade them while they still have value. Hahn has made the team older, slower, more right handed and worse defensively. What's the point in that if it doesn't help you win ?

Teams do pretty well getting BP pieces without spending the kind of money the Sox have spent on them.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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14 hours ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

That’s not true really. They could trade guys like Giolito and Hendriks now, get several quality young players for them, and then sign free agents this offseason to replace them. That is expecting the Sox to operate intelligently though so it won’t happen.

Would you really get 'several' quality young players for Giolito or Hendricks? And equally would you trust the FO to actually get quality free agents to replace them or simply bargain basement options like they did with the 2b and RF this off season?

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5 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The point is to get younger and cheaper. How much longer do you think some of these veteran players are going to last. Trade them while they still have value. Hahn has made the team older, slower, more right handed and worse defensively. What's the point in that if it doesn't help you win ?

Teams do pretty well getting BP pieces without spending the kind of money the Sox have spent on them.

Good in philosophy but the only old players you are trading is Abreu, I guess Graveman and Hendriks may fall in that category as well. 

The veterans are signed for a couple more years to coincide with the contracts of young players such as Robert, Moncada and Jimenez. 

Yes they can acquire bullpen pieces after trading bullpen pieces but why take the chance they won't work out when they already have them? They are attempting to win now and they won't be making any mass player trades. They may trade one or at most two but why weaken the team at this point.

Didnt we have this discussion during the rebuild and your position was sacrifice everyting to each season as this season is the only one you can win?

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18 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

That defense behind him cost him all three of his runs.  He did well against a really good offense last night.

Shhh...they are on a roll.

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I think you sell off all expensive or older pieces and/or take on some risks with guys like Cody Bellinger/Max Muncy who haven't been great so far this year (within reason of course) if you're doing a retool. If you're doing a rebuild, then obviously, keep trying to get hauls. The important thing for the Sox is that they don't wait too long to continue to evaluate their situation. IMO, you utilize the following players in a trade once you throw up the white flag:
 

  • Abreu
  • Moncada
  • Pollock
  • Giolito
  • Hendriks
  • Graveman
  • Grandal

 

And I definitely would quietly shop Eloy and Robert just to check in to see what you can get. 

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14 minutes ago, nitetrain8601 said:

I think you sell off all expensive or older pieces and/or take on some risks with guys like Cody Bellinger/Max Muncy who haven't been great so far this year (within reason of course) if you're doing a retool. If you're doing a rebuild, then obviously, keep trying to get hauls. The important thing for the Sox is that they don't wait too long to continue to evaluate their situation. IMO, you utilize the following players in a trade once you throw up the white flag:
 

  • Abreu
  • Moncada
  • Pollock
  • Giolito
  • Hendriks
  • Graveman
  • Grandal

 

And I definitely would quietly shop Eloy and Robert just to check in to see what you can get. 

You would be really selling low and get almost nothing for Grandal and Moncada.

Players returning from injury and having poor seasons don't have much value.

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11 minutes ago, ptatc said:

You would be really selling low and get almost nothing for Grandal and Moncada.

Players returning from injury and having poor seasons don't have much value.

The thing with Moncada is, I don't see a high for him on the horizon. I don't think he's in some funk or whatever is happening will cause his stock to rise. I actually view him as a Pollock type player where he will show you some flashes of talent before getting hurt each time.

Grandal, my fear always with him, has come to fruition. He's a guy who needs to be platooned at C and his bat used at DH/1B. And he's a guy since he's been with the Dodgers - if the team is hitting, he does great, but he cannot carry an offense whatsoever. With that stated, he's a guy you hope he gets hot, then deal him at the deadline. 

I think the Sox would be smart to retool instead of rebuild. Fans would riot. Look at how people have turned on the Cubs. It'll be worse for the Sox as the Cubs at least got a title and a few deep runs out of it. The Sox have been bounced first round, each time.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, nitetrain8601 said:

The thing with Moncada is, I don't see a high for him on the horizon. I don't think he's in some funk or whatever is happening will cause his stock to rise. I actually view him as a Pollock type player where he will show you some flashes of talent before getting hurt each time.

Grandal, my fear always with him, has come to fruition. He's a guy who needs to be platooned at C and his bat used at DH/1B. And he's a guy since he's been with the Dodgers - if the team is hitting, he does great, but he cannot carry an offense whatsoever. With that stated, he's a guy you hope he gets hot, then deal him at the deadline. 

I think the Sox would be smart to retool instead of rebuild. Fans would riot. Look at how people have turned on the Cubs. It'll be worse for the Sox as the Cubs at least got a title and a few deep runs out of it. The Sox have been bounced first round, each time.

The Sox aren't rebuilding.  They probably won't even sell off short term assets in the next month.  Right or wrong, they'll stay the course because pretty much this entire team is under control thru 2023 and beyond.  We just have to hope they actually acquire a good LHH OF this offseason, and ideally, a whole new coaching staff.  

Edited by ChiSox59

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36 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

The Sox aren't rebuilding.  They probably won't even sell off short term assets in the next month.  Right or wrong, they'll stay the course because pretty much this entire team is under control thru 2023 and beyond.  We just have to hope they actually acquire a good LHH OF this offseason, and ideally, a whole new coaching staff.  

I think they will need a catcher as well. It doesn't bode well for a catcher to miss significant time for knee issues then back issues in consecutive season. The problem will be to find a quality catcher willing to play 50-75% of the time.

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43 minutes ago, nitetrain8601 said:

The thing with Moncada is, I don't see a high for him on the horizon. I don't think he's in some funk or whatever is happening will cause his stock to rise. I actually view him as a Pollock type player where he will show you some flashes of talent before getting hurt each time.

Grandal, my fear always with him, has come to fruition. He's a guy who needs to be platooned at C and his bat used at DH/1B. And he's a guy since he's been with the Dodgers - if the team is hitting, he does great, but he cannot carry an offense whatsoever. With that stated, he's a guy you hope he gets hot, then deal him at the deadline. 

I think the Sox would be smart to retool instead of rebuild. Fans would riot. Look at how people have turned on the Cubs. It'll be worse for the Sox as the Cubs at least got a title and a few deep runs out of it. The Sox have been bounced first round, each time.

Moncada and Pollock are nothing alike.

They will not be selling as low as possible to replace him with Burger since that would wipe out the infield defense.


So who would you start at catcher, knowing nobody will take Grandal’s remaining contract?  Carlos Perez?  Zavala?  McGuire?

Or double down by trading for and extending Willson Contreras, costing major talent from the farm system and then making catcher roughly a $35 million position for the Sox in 2023.

He’s the only top tier, difference making catcher in FA and is getting a bit older.  The parallels with Grandal are a bit scary, starting with NL to AL.

 

9. Willson Contreras, C, Cubs: Clearly the top catcher on next winter’s market, Contreras has gotten out to a strong start in 2022, hitting at a .258/.382/.458 clip with five homers through his first 144 plate appearances. That puts him roughly on pace for what would be the fourth 20-homer season of his career. Contreras, a two-time All-Star, ranks fourth among all catchers (min. 500 plate appearances) in fWAR and fifth in wRC+ dating back to the 2019 season. He just turned 30 earlier this month, making the first season of a new contract his age-31 campaign.

Contreras’ reps will surely be looking to topple Yasmani Grandal’s four-year, $73MM deal with the White Sox. With a strong enough finish, Contreras could reasonably push to join the likes of J.T. Realmuto, Yadier Molina and Buster Posey as catchers who earned $20MM-plus annually during their prime.

mlbtraderumors.com

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21 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I think they will need a catcher as well. It doesn't bode well for a catcher to miss significant time for knee issues then back issues in consecutive season. The problem will be to find a quality catcher willing to play 50-75% of the time.

I think Yaz/McGuire is probably the group through 2023.  Hopefully next time there is an injury they give Perez a chance and he sticks.  

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4 hours ago, ptatc said:

Good in philosophy but the only old players you are trading is Abreu, I guess Graveman and Hendriks may fall in that category as well. 

The veterans are signed for a couple more years to coincide with the contracts of young players such as Robert, Moncada and Jimenez. 

Yes they can acquire bullpen pieces after trading bullpen pieces but why take the chance they won't work out when they already have them? They are attempting to win now and they won't be making any mass player trades. They may trade one or at most two but why weaken the team at this point.

Didnt we have this discussion during the rebuild and your position was sacrifice everyting to each season as this season is the only one you can win?

I don't know what we discussed in the past and my position then. You would have to find it and show me. Every season is different and my opinion is based on any particular season and how I foresee future seasons. If I did say something like that it was because I had no faith in the FO to sustain the "multiple championship" window Hahn spoke of. because I know the Sox always find a way to turn things bad. I do not relish being correct one iota.

This 2022 season is a failure. It has been failing since mid 2021. That's enough time to know they don't have enough health , talent, Left handedness , good defenders, youth to sustain this window. It's all been crumbling. Teams that crumble usually keep crumbling or make changes.

If you want to stay the course with this bunch I understand your thinking. There are no good minor leaguers available. It isn't easy to find them but somehow teams like Tampa Bay can always trade vets and operate on a shoestring budget to content in the toughest division in baseball. Minnesota and Cleveland have done it spending less than the Sox.

It's not easy to admit the Sox have failed and knowing that I don't expect a purge or even if there was one for it to succeed. The Sox are once again mediocre and in the past that meant a rebuild. Even though the Front office who built the mediocrity have managed to once again build the team right back to mediocre after 2 years in the playoffs. I don't have faith they can get the team back into the playoffs with a minor tear down but in this division it's only a hill not a mountain. But that hill has proven in the past that it's more like an obstacle course to them.

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I got bored and started looking at free agents for the coming offseason and I really need Brandon Nimmo in a Sox uniform. He would help solve a lot of problems. 

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28 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't know what we discussed in the past and my position then. You would have to find it and show me. Every season is different and my opinion is based on any particular season and how I foresee future seasons. If I did say something like that it was because I had no faith in the FO to sustain the "multiple championship" window Hahn spoke of. because I know the Sox always find a way to turn things bad. I do not relish being correct one iota.

This 2022 season is a failure. It has been failing since mid 2021. That's enough time to know they don't have enough health , talent, Left handedness , good defenders, youth to sustain this window. It's all been crumbling. Teams that crumble usually keep crumbling or make changes.

If you want to stay the course with this bunch I understand your thinking. There are no good minor leaguers available. It isn't easy to find them but somehow teams like Tampa Bay can always trade vets and operate on a shoestring budget to content in the toughest division in baseball. Minnesota and Cleveland have done it spending less than the Sox.

It's not easy to admit the Sox have failed and knowing that I don't expect a purge or even if there was one for it to succeed. The Sox are once again mediocre and in the past that meant a rebuild. Even though the Front office who built the mediocrity have managed to once again build the team right back to mediocre after 2 years in the playoffs. I don't have faith they can get the team back into the playoffs with a minor tear down but in this division it's only a hill not a mountain. But that hill has proven in the past that it's more like an obstacle course to them.

Fair enough.

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Thinking about this some…just don’t see how a retool would work.  The challenge in my mind is we only have Cease & Kopech for another three years and Vaughn for another four years.  As such, you’d have to get major league ready players for whatever you trade away at the deadline or the timing just won’t work out as most of our minor league reinforcements are a year or two out at minimum.

Not sure what the answer is here.  I’d love to see a shakeup with the coaching staff before even considering selling, but that’s obviously not happening until the off-season if ever.  My guess is Jerry going to force Hahn to stick with this sinking ship and not make any changes until the off-season regardless.  Things could get really ugly down the stretch if the team is this team is 10 games or so out at the deadline and does nothing.

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23 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Thinking about this some…just don’t see how a retool would work.  The challenge in my mind is we only have Cease & Kopech for another three years and Vaughn for another four years.  As such, you’d have to get major league ready players for whatever you trade away at the deadline or the timing just won’t work out as most of our minor league reinforcements are a year or two out at minimum.

Abreu and Giolito could/should  bring back some close-to-the majors talent.  
And they could move some players in July, which should be a seller's market, for lower minors guys.  And then move some low-minors guys in the offseason, when the market is more balanced. 
And they could trade some of these relievers; now it's pointless if they settle for Rule 5 guys like Hahn did for Soria, Swarzak et al.
Now this would take a deft hand, and active engagement in the July trade  market, little of which this FO has shown before.
 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, nitetrain8601 said:

I think you sell off all expensive or older pieces and/or take on some risks with guys like Cody Bellinger/Max Muncy who haven't been great so far this year (within reason of course) if you're doing a retool. If you're doing a rebuild, then obviously, keep trying to get hauls. The important thing for the Sox is that they don't wait too long to continue to evaluate their situation. IMO, you utilize the following players in a trade once you throw up the white flag:
 

  • Abreu
  • Moncada
  • Pollock
  • Giolito
  • Hendriks
  • Graveman
  • Grandal

 

And I definitely would quietly shop Eloy and Robert just to check in to see what you can get. 

Nobody wants any of those guys other than Abreu and Graveman. 

Players having bad seasons have minimal value. 

Go look at Grandal, Moncada and Giolito's baseball savant page. There is nothing that suggests they're about to turn it around in-season. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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