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whitesox61382

When should the Sox start to panic?

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Man, how long and how much blame can we dump onto Koch??? :puke

Brando is right. Koch did kill the momentum we had. Now that he's gone, he left the sox with a bad taste in their mouths sort of speak..

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Well, two games on that roadtrip can be blamed on him, plus other games throughout the season that he blew saves.

 

Our team is, simply put, playing awful right now.  If you, whitesox61382, think that this is what our team is 'supposed' to play like, you are dead wrong.  Kenny will go out and get the necessary parts to make this team competitive.

 

And, IMO, you can get Garcia, Finley, and another reliever without giving up any one of Reed/Anderson/Sweeney. 

 

I'll take a look at this after this week is over - if we're struggling then, I will be worried.  Until then - I'll relax a bit.

It isn't that I believe that the play of late is what I expected, but on the whole that this team is starting to perform like I thought it would, ie an inconsistant team that struggles to stay above .500. They overachieved to some degree in the 1st two months and they have come back to Earth the past two weeks, and that is what I meant when I said they are starting to look like the "real" Sox that many expected this offseason. As someone else pointed out, this is the same team that won 86 games last year with a worse starting rotation. Furthermore, it appears that you are agreeing with me without even knowing it. By saying that KW needs to make some moves to make this team competitive you are pretty much agreeing with me :rolleyes: .

 

It will take quite a bit to land Garcia, Finley, and another quality reliever. It will probably take more than it took to land Everett and Alomar last season, since quality starting pitching is always a premium and half the teams in contention will be after Garcia. Finley is comparable to Everett from an asking price standpoint, so the Sox will probably have to give up quite a bit to get those 3.

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We just need more solid hitting. Lose some of the "power" guys, and go for the guys that actually put the ball in play.

Our hitting is not good enough to win the WS (Indians in the mid-90s weren't good enough, either), but you're crazy if you think that the offense that is on pace to score 900+ runs without its second biggest bat in the line-up is the culprit.

 

We don't have an ace.

We don't have a good RHP arm to set up for Shingo and Marte.

 

You may not think that 2 moves will make us into world beaters but look at it this way:

 

Glavine/Garcia > Buerhle

Buerhle > Loaiza

Loazia > Garland

Garland > Show

Show MUCHO, MUCHO > MunozRauchWrightDiaz

 

That's AT least a 10 game improvement

 

 

Then you have:

 

Shingo > Koch

Marte > Marte (Damasso was unbelivably unclutch in April and May, he will improv)

Urbina > Politte/Jackson (primarily vs righties)

Cotts as a lefty specialist > Cotts as a key long reliever

 

That's another 4-5 game swing.

 

The way these additions would positively affect and inspire other players cannot be quantified. Mediocre players are known to elevate their game when they know/feel that good players are backing them up - you can't ask Showenweiss to beat Sabathia but if you trot him out there as a #5 starter against some other schmuck, he can throw a 4-hit shut-out once in a while.

 

 

Maggs comes back and with those acquisitions SOX are a legit contender. Throw in Finley before the deadline, and Sox are on their way.

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Hopefully KW is getting just as sick of this BS as we all are. Hopefully he will pull a trade or 2. I think this team needs a little kick in the ass to get it going again.

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But we score almost all the runs when we don't need them. We did this last year. We beat the crap out of a team, then lose a bunch with only 1 or 2 runs. Run production and ERA's can be VERY misleading sometimes.

 

And not back at what you said Brando, but just back to the comment about Koch being a momentum-killer. I'm sorry, maybe so. But if that is the case, and these guys still can't pull it together, especially after KW sent Koch packing, then I say fire this whole friggin' team and go with AAA (not really, but you know...)! I mean, these are major league ball players making millions of dollars, right? You can't tell me that they are still effected by what happened with Koch. Plus the GM showed the team that he felt Koch was a problem, so he booted him! He didn't send him down, he didn't send him in for arm tests ala the North Side, HE SHIPPED HIM OUT!!! If anything, that should have boosted the morale, if indeed they were having problems sleeping at night due to Koch and his nightmarish outings.

 

Strap on the cup, get in the game, and quit playing like AA rejects.

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It isn't that I believe that the play of late is what I expected, but on the whole that this team is starting to perform like I thought it would, ie an inconsistant team that struggles to stay above .500. They overachieved to some degree in the 1st two months and they have come back to Earth the past two weeks, and that is what I meant when I said they are starting to look like the "real" Sox that many expected this offseason. As someone else pointed out, this is the same team that won 86 games last year with a worse starting rotation. Furthermore, it appears that you are agreeing with me without even knowing it. By saying that KW needs to make some moves to make this team competitive you are pretty much agreeing with me :rolleyes: .

 

It will take quite a bit to land Garcia, Finley, and another quality reliever. It will probably take more than it took to land Everett and Alomar last season, since quality starting pitching is always a premium and half the teams in contention will be after Garcia. Finley is comparable to Everett from an asking price standpoint, so the Sox will probably have to give up quite a bit to get those 3.

Where did I say Kenny Williams NEEDS to go out and make some moves? I said that he WILL go out and make moves, never said he NEEDS to. Please, don't put words in my mouth, I don't like when people do that...

 

EDIT: And what I mean by 'make this team competitive, I meant playoff caliber competitive, meaning competing with the Boston's and Oakland's of the world. I agree with you that the fifth starter issue should have been taken care of long before the season started, but not that Kenny has done a bad job...

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Where did I say Kenny Williams NEEDS to go out and make some moves?  I said that he WILL go out and make moves, never said he NEEDS to.  Please, don't put words in my mouth, I don't like when people do that...

I think you got it backwards: Kenny NEEDS to make the moves but I don't think he WILL.

 

We need Glavine/Garcia/Batista - he'll get us Armas, Jr.

We need Urbina, he'll get us Meadows.

We need Finley, he'll get us Marvin Benard.

 

Then he'll go on the radio and proclaim his unquenchable desire for triumph -- World Series, Oscars, Nobel Prize; he's the type-A-guy who just wants to win afterall. :headbang :puke

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Ok - here's a break for a minute, here's what I want everyone to do. Breathe in. Breathe out. And repeat. Ah, isn't that nice? :D

 

We're still four games above .500. We've sucked lately, yet are still doing a lot better than this team did last year at this time. We're playing without one of our top hitters. Any way you look at it, Maggs is going to be missed - his presence in the lineup really helps out.

 

We have played the tougher portion of our schedule, and a lot of us predicted that we would be right at 500. Now - we've had two, IMO, pretty recurring problems with our team, and that is our bullpen, and every time we need a start from a fifth starter. Koch blew about five games or so for us this year - and we haven't gotten ONE good start from our fifth starter this year.

 

Call me a homer if you want to - but once Kenny sends in a couple of reinforcements, whether it be a left handed bat, another starter, or another reliever, we WILL be OK.

 

This team had the second best win percentage IIRC in the second half of the season last year. Unfortunately, last year, the Twins had the BEST second half win percentage. Well, this year things are a bit different. For one, we have the easier schedule down the stretch. Second, this team is different - if you want to say it isn't, and that Ozzie isn't making one difference, go ahead.

 

But I, for one, refuse to believe that he hasn't made a difference. I agree with a lot of you, he has made some mistakes, such as day-to-day rosters, bullpen issues, etc. But for those mistakes he makes up for with his fire, and desire to win. IMO this team last year, right now is barely at 500 with Manuel as manager, and I say BARELY. This team won't quit, and it isn't quitting now.

 

Things aren't going well right now, oh well. A lot of you guys said before the season that if we could survive the first half, and hover right around 500, that we would be a position to make a stretch run for an AL Central Title. Well, that's what we're doing, and, we're playing like s***, yet still four games over.

 

Look - I know this team isn't perfect. We have our share of holes, bullpen, starters, whatever. But I, for one, don't think this team is giving up, or that this Cleveland team will just overtake us...

 

Can I just say for some of you guys to relax a bit? Being angry about what's happening is OK, but some of you saying 'We're done, we're not winning anything' and 'Cleveland is going to beat us and then Detroit is going to beat us.' blah blah blah, give me a f***ing break...

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I think you got it backwards: Kenny NEEDS to make the moves but I don't think he WILL.    We need Glavine/Garcia/Batista - he'll get us Armas, Jr. We need Urbina, he'll get us Meadows. We need Finley, he'll get us Marvin Benard.

 

Then he'll go on a radio and proclaim his unquenchable desire for triumphl --World Series, Oscars, Nobel Prize;  he's the typa-a-guy who just wants to win.    :headbang

Brando, all reports are indicating he's been asking for Garcia/Batista (haven't heard anything about Glavine, who I like as well). And if he goes out and gets us a Brian Meadows, that's fine with me as well (though I'd like an Urbina rather).

 

I really think Kenny is looking into every possible scenario to help this ballclub out, and if you think otherwise, I think you're fooling yourself.

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The panic button is usually hit when you've made a few acquisitions and your team starts playing worse.

 

Unless by the panic button you mean when does he make a move. In that case, it has got to be very, very soon.

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Where did I say Kenny Williams NEEDS to go out and make some moves?  I said that he WILL go out and make moves, never said he NEEDS to.  Please, don't put words in my mouth, I don't like when people do that...

 

EDIT:  And what I mean by 'make this team competitive, I meant playoff caliber competitive, meaning competing with the Boston's and Oakland's of the world.  I agree with you that the fifth starter issue should have been taken care of long before the season started, but not that Kenny has done a bad job...

Here are your direct words:

 

"Kenny will go out and get the necessary parts to make this team competitive."

 

You need to be a little more accurate with your words. This sentence looks like you are saying that in order to make this team competitive, that Kenny would have to go and get the necessary parts. It appears that you were the one putting words in your mouth, but weren't accurate in your choice. :rolleyes: The fact that you later backtracked to cover your ass further proves this point.

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Brando is becoming the Bagglio of this board.

The smart voice of reason.

I never thought of the Koch effect til he brought it up.

When did Brando turn the corner and become a baseball god?

Brando for GM. Brando is da man.

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:finger Brando is wrong :finger

 

I just couldn't stand so much agreement with Brando in one thread.

LMAO I feel the same way. For some reason I'm agreeing with him. :huh: :lol: I'm agreeing with him because he is right.

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Here are your direct words:

 

"Kenny will go out and get the necessary parts to make this team competitive."

 

You need to be a little more accurate with your words. This sentence looks like you are saying that in order to make this team competitive, that Kenny would have to go and get the necessary parts. It appears that you were the one putting words in your mouth, but weren't accurate in your choice. :rolleyes: The fact that you later backtracked to cover your ass further proves this point.

How am I backtracking? By editing my post and telling you what I meant? This team is playing like absolute horse crap right now, yet are four games over .500. Had Koch not blown a couple games on a roadtrip, we'd be that much better.

 

I think this team we have right now can win the division. Call me a homer, a dumbass, a dumbf***, all three, whatever name you can think of, that is what I think. Why? Because we've gone through the toughest part of our schedule, and I've stated why in that big long post.

 

You are correct in saying that I put my words inaccurately, what I should have stated was what I put in the EDIT in my post, but apparently you decided not to ignore that part... :rolleyes:

 

Tell me how I backtracked? Kenny has put an above-.500 team on the field, and is about to make this team better by adding more arms/bats.

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Ok - here's a break for a minute, here's what I want everyone to do.  Breathe in.  Breathe out.  And repeat.  Ah, isn't that nice?  :D

 

We're still four games above .500.  We've sucked lately, yet are still doing a lot better than this team did last year at this time.  We're playing without one of our top hitters.  Any way you look at it, Maggs is going to be missed - his presence in the lineup really helps out. 

 

We have played the tougher portion of our schedule, and a lot of us predicted that we would be right at 500.  Now - we've had two, IMO, pretty recurring problems with our team, and that is our bullpen, and every time we need a start from a fifth starter.  Koch blew about five games or so for us this year - and we haven't gotten ONE good start from our fifth starter this year.

 

Call me a homer if you want to - but once Kenny sends in a couple of reinforcements, whether it be a left handed bat, another starter, or another reliever, we WILL be OK.

 

This team had the second best win percentage IIRC in the second half of the season last year.  Unfortunately, last year, the Twins had the BEST second half win percentage.  Well, this year things are a bit different.  For one, we have the easier schedule down the stretch.  Second, this team is different - if you want to say it isn't, and that Ozzie isn't making one difference, go ahead. 

 

But I, for one, refuse to believe that he hasn't made a difference.  I agree with a lot of you, he has made some mistakes, such as day-to-day rosters, bullpen issues, etc.  But for those mistakes he makes up for with his fire, and desire to win.  IMO this team last year, right now is barely at 500 with Manuel as manager, and I say BARELY.  This team won't quit, and it isn't quitting now.

 

Things aren't going well right now, oh well.  A lot of you guys said before the season that if we could survive the first half, and hover right around 500, that we would be a position to make a stretch run for an AL Central Title.  Well, that's what we're doing, and, we're playing like s***, yet still four games over.

 

Look - I know this team isn't perfect.  We have our share of holes, bullpen, starters, whatever.  But I, for one, don't think this team is giving up, or that this Cleveland team will just overtake us...

 

Can I just say for some of you guys to relax a bit?  Being angry about what's happening is OK, but some of you saying 'We're done, we're not winning anything' and 'Cleveland is going to beat us and then Detroit is going to beat us.' blah blah blah, give me a f***ing break...

Having Maggs back will help the offense, but the offense hasn't been the problem of late. Unless Maggs has learned how to throw a 95 mph fastball, the Sox pitching will still be a problem.

 

Actually the Sox still have a very tough schedule in which 56 of the 95 remaining games are against teams with a .500 or better record.

 

Last years second half has nothing to do with this years second half. Just because the Sox played well last year in the 2nd half doesn't mean that a similar fate will occur this year. So you can't fall back thinking that the Sox will have another great 2nd half(it is possible, but not certain).

 

Ozzie is a great "cheerleader" and clubhouse leader, but his in game managing has been questionable. You can credit it to him being a rookie for now, but that rookie card doesn't work in the 2nd half. He needs to learn from his mistakes by the 2nd half. Lets also not forget that Sox fans were praising Manuel in his 1st year(won manager of the year) only to find out that he was not a good manager. Give Ozzie some more time before you declare him as a good or bad manager. Thinking that Ozzie will lead this team to a great finish is baseless and optimistic(although I hope that it happens).

 

Can you please show some examples of people saying that this season is over(from regular posters)? I know that I certainly wasn't saying that, and if you thought so, than you completely misunderstood me. I was pointing out some problems with the hope that they can be addressed to give this organization a better chance of winning the division. Until the Sox are mathamaticly eliminated I don't give up on the season, and even then I still hope for the best and a strong finish.

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The Sox should panic right now, their pitching has been horrible, and they need to pick up the pace since the Cubs come to town and that won't be so pretty...I might be the only one to say this but, come Friday, Sat, Sun, the Cubs are going to make them look like the 62' Mets and the 03' Tigers

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The Sox should panic right now, their pitching has been horrible, and they need to pick up the pace since the Cubs come to town and that won't be so pretty...I might be the only one to say this but, come Friday, Sat, Sun, the Cubs are going to make them look like the 62' Mets and the 03' Tigers

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Let me join in the nutsack swinging....

 

Good post Brando. I posted on another board how it is absolutely ridiculous that KW is sitting here watching this team implode due to obvious problems. He needs to get on the phone and make an offer that the other team can't refuse. You cannot watch your team lose every fifth game, blow late leads, and get shut down by power RHP because you want to hang onto a particular prospect or two. I mean, you could sit back and watch, but if you want to win you can't.

 

If it's a matter of no other team willing to deal yet, well, you've still got to make an excellent offer. If there's still no takers then go out and pick up a stop-gap pitcher for the 5th spot and in the pen until a deal to upgrade can be made.

 

This team has too much talent to sacrifice in the name of holding onto a couple of prospects.

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Having Maggs back will help the offense, but the offense hasn't been the problem of late. Unless Maggs has learned how to throw a 95 mph fastball, the Sox pitching will still be a problem.

 

Actually the Sox still have a very tough schedule in which 56 of the 95 remaining games are against teams with a .500 or better record.

 

Last years second half has nothing to do with this years second half. Just because the Sox played well last year in the 2nd half doesn't mean that a similar fate will occur this year. So you can't fall back thinking that the Sox will have another great 2nd half(it is possible, but not certain).

 

Ozzie is a great "cheerleader" and clubhouse leader, but his in game managing has been questionable. You can credit it to him being a rookie for now, but that rookie card doesn't work in the 2nd half. He needs to learn from his mistakes by the 2nd half. Lets also not forget that Sox fans were praising Manuel in his 1st year(won manager of the year) only to find out that he was not a good manager. Give Ozzie some more time before you declare him as a good or bad manager. Thinking that Ozzie will lead this team to a great finish is baseless and optimistic(although I hope that it happens).

 

Can you please show some examples of people saying that this season is over(from regular posters)? I know that I certainly wasn't saying that, and if you thought so, than you completely misunderstood me. I was pointing out some problems with the hope that they can be addressed to give this organization a better chance of winning the division. Until the Sox are mathamaticly eliminated I don't give up on the season, and even then I still hope for the best and a strong finish.

OK - I think I have been misunderstanding you. And no, you never said that the season is over, but I wasn't 'pointing the finger' at you on that one, just letting you know. I've been flipping over between WSI and this place and it's been pretty chaotic the last couple days, I expected it would be. My point is just that this team is playing piss poorly right now, but that I don't think it will continue.

 

I'll get this out of the way - you wanted me to point out a specific poster here who said the season will be over (or we'll be out of the race), well, Jeckle said it, but then again, that's probably a bad example, as he is sort of a 'bandwagonny' type of a guy.

 

I agree that our pitching has been the problem as of late, but it's not like it's been against terrible teams (excluding the Montreal series, let me explain my self real quickly). It started with Philly where we gave up 11 and 13 runs in that series, won one, lost one. Philly has a very good offense, and Garland/Buerhle each had bad starts in that series. But Garland bounced back, his start against Montreal, IMO, should have been good enough for a win.

 

Then the Atlanta series came, and other then the 8 run game (which we won), we pitched pretty well that series as well.

 

We gave up a total of 11 runs in the Florida series yet lost two out of three. The Montreal series, I really didn't have a good feeling with Munoz out there.

 

OK - sorry if I've been rambling, but my point is that while our pitching hasn't been the greatest, it hasn't against bad hitting teams (excluding Montreal). Even today, against Cleveland, giving up 5 runs should be enough to win a game. Their offense is very good, and five runs from your fourth starter should be good enough to win, IMO.

 

(that part was probably longer than it should have been, sorry about that)

 

Well - I do think that while our schedule isn't really easy, it will be a lot easier than Minny's. For one, we get a lot of Detroit in the second half. While they're doing very well this half of the season, they will eventually sell some of their players (Urbina, etc). And while I don't want to use last season as a crutch, I do believe that this team will heat up. I base that on past experience, right or wrong, take it FWIW. That's what I believe, you might believe something different, but that's what I think.

 

And I agree with you that Ozzie has made his share of mistakes, and by no means am I calling him a 'great' manager. But as I said, I think he makes up for that in his desire to win.

 

I think I said it earlier, this team would barely have won 30 games with Manuel as manager. I see this in their ability to come back from almost any deficit, and really, this team doesn't and hasn't quit this year.

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Let me join in the nutsack swinging....

 

Good post Brando.  I posted on another board how it is absolutely ridiculous that KW is sitting here watching this team implode due to obvious problems.  He needs to get on the phone and make an offer that the other team can't refuse.  You cannot watch your team lose every fifth game, blow late leads, and get shut down by power RHP because you want to hang onto a particular prospect or two.  I mean, you could sit back and watch, but if you want to win you can't. 

 

If it's a matter of no other team willing to deal yet, well, you've still got to make an excellent offer. If there's still no takers then go out and pick up a stop-gap pitcher for the 5th spot and in the pen until a deal to upgrade can be made. 

 

This team has too much talent to sacrifice in the name of holding onto a couple of prospects.

You don't overpay to make a move for the sake of making a move...

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Let me join in the nutsack swinging....

 

Good post Brando.  I posted on another board how it is absolutely ridiculous that KW is sitting here watching this team implode due to obvious problems.  He needs to get on the phone and make an offer that the other team can't refuse.  You cannot watch your team lose every fifth game, blow late leads, and get shut down by power RHP because you want to hang onto a particular prospect or two.  I mean, you could sit back and watch, but if you want to win you can't. 

 

If it's a matter of no other team willing to deal yet, well, you've still got to make an excellent offer.   If there's still no takers then go out and pick up a stop-gap pitcher for the 5th spot and in the pen until a deal to upgrade can be made. 

 

This team has too much talent to sacrifice in the name of holding onto a couple of prospects.

The funniest part of all is that they probably knew Wright was f***ed up - hell fans knew that a YEAR ago and they still trotted him (and Stewart, Cotts and Porzio) out there in 2003 and 2004 just so they could save a couple of Mill.........Ok, so Sox narrowly missed the playoffs because of it, balablabla.........What do they do in 2004? Same thing. Fanatical determination to do everything the cheapest way.

 

In the process they completely devalued Diaz, Munoz and Rauch - who will give you Garcia for them now as opposed to 4 weeks ago when they had decent value?

 

So as a result Sox have no 5th stater AND no ace. No BP help either. Instead of going on big streaks like a well-balanced playoff team playing in a s***ty division should, Sox are only 4 games over .500. The f***.

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You don't overpay to make a move for the sake of making a move...

"for the sake of making a move"???????

 

Making a move for the hell of it would be something along the lines of bringing Jose Vidro here. We already have a stocked IF, including two quality 2B, but let's get Vidro because he's a big name. Vidro's effect on this team would be minimal except for some good press about how KW is trying to win a championship, blah, blah, blah.

 

Making moves to fill holes that are obviously costing your team victories is NOT even close to making a move "for the sake of making a move". We absolutely NEED another SP. If we picked up Glendon f***ing Rusch tomorrow our team would improve DRAMATICALLY. There is no bad move for KW to make to fill the 5th spot, there is no possible way I see him making the team worse via a deal for another pitcher. Same with RH setup, we don't have s***. It's a glaring weakness and MUST be addressed before things get out of control. There's no "for the sake" of it about it, a GM serious about winning has to do whatever it takes. If, as a GM, you're not willing to fill the holes by giving up quality or some of your future (or your name is Phil Hendry and you're dealing with the Pirates), you might as well announce that you're selling at the break. We cannot win with the holes that we have right now. Thanks to some outstanding hitting by Willie and Juan, great early starts from SS, and Koch not blowing saves early allowing Shingo to pitch RH setup, we didn't see how much of an effect these holes would have. Juan, Willie, and Schoe have all come back to earth. Koch is gone, moving Mr. Zero to close, leaving that RH setup hole. Now we're beginning to see what KW, JR, and co. set us up for at the beginning of the season. Thing is, their plan was to start the season cheap, hang in the race, and fill the holes as the season progresses. Their plan is working, but NOW is the time they uphold their end of the plan and fill those holes.

 

KW has made some great moves in the last couple of seasons, I don't think he's a bad GM at all. I will question his sincerity when he talks about going after championships if he continues to wait for a sugarcoated deal while our team falls out of contention.

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A few points:

 

1. I don't think the Sox of the past 2 weeks are the "real" Sox. I'll take a 2 month period of baseball over a 2 week period. This is just one of those bad periods a team goes through.

 

2. Jerry Manuel was not a poor manager. He did a decent job while he was here. It was, however, time for a change. In fact, it was beyond time for that. I'm thinking May 2003 would have been appropriate.

 

3. KW cannot go out and make a deal if there is not a willing partner. It's that simple. KW also owes it to the organization not to make "an offer they can't refuse."

 

4. What happened to the Sox and Koch on the west coast trip did take the wind out of our sails. They team was so determined to put that "we can't win one the west coast" mentality behind them. They went out and played well enough to do so, but then things were Botched.

 

Thank you

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