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whitesoxfan101

"Vince Young will be a 2nd day pick"

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We should actually watch the players. The reason scouts are so good as they know what to look for, both physically and mentally, but I think actually watching somebody is the best way to scout. Numbers don't really tell the whole story in any sport.

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And so Ive basically seen Leinart and Young play every game.

 

But when I argue on an internet message board I cant say:

 

Listen guys I swear that I have seen them play and this is what I think.

 

I have to back up my conclusions with hard evidence.

 

If I had a television show I would run tape and comment, but I dont have that luxury so I work with what I have, argument and hard numbers.

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QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 08:02 PM)
because who else are you going to compare him to as far as playmaking ability with his legs.

 

 

Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb come to mind...Young is fast, but from what I could tell, he did not have blazing speed. He appeared to have a great ability to know when to run and when to pass though.

 

I see something special in Vince Young, and I think he is going to be a very good pro QB in the NFL. There is something about him that I really like a lot...it's either his physical attributes, his judgment on the field, or his drive to win...or maybe it's all 3.

 

 

Oh...and to whoever it was that called Leinart the lefthanded Ken Dorsey...I like to refer to him as the left handed Tom Brady.

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Oh...and to whoever it was that called Leinart the lefthanded Ken Dorsey...I like to refer to him as the left handed Tom Brady.

 

Unfortuntaely for Leinart, he doesn't have Brady's arm. But, on the bright side, his arm is better than Dorsey, or Pennington's etc. Leinart has a good arm, but his main problem is that he doesn't throw a tight spiral, which ends up hurting him with a few fluttering balls and makes his arm average.

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QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 12:36 AM)
Oh...and to whoever it was that called Leinart the lefthanded Ken Dorsey...I like to refer to him as the left handed Tom Brady.

 

:lol: :lol: :lolhitting :lolhitting

 

Only 3 super bowl rings as starter to go!! And Brady doesn't make the stupid mistakes that Leinart did in the Texas game. But thanks for playing!

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QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 01:45 PM)
:lol:  :lol:  :lolhitting  :lolhitting

 

Only 3 super bowl rings as starter to go!!  And Brady doesn't make the stupid mistakes that Leinart did in the Texas game.  But thanks for playing!

 

Broncos 27, Patriots 13

 

Their arm strength is very similar, they both make very good decisions as QBs(as opposed to the idea you somehow got that Leinart makes bad decisions based off of 1 f***ing game), they are both very accurate QBs, can both check down and find the open receiver...and on top of that, Leinart has a little more mobility than Brady.

 

Obviously, I'm not suggesting Leinart is the next Tom Brady...but to compare him to Ken Dorsey is a f***ing insult to every scout and draft guru in the world. I guarantee you that Matt Leinart is atleast an average QB in the NFL, something Ken Dorsey will almost never be.

 

But thanks for playing.

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Tom Brady has much more arm strength than Leinart from what ive seen of both but still... at this point of his career Leinart > what Brady was...... and id say Leinart is the most polished QB coming out of college in a LONG time.

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QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 04:40 PM)
Tom Brady has much more arm strength than Leinart from what ive seen of both but still... at this point of his career Leinart > what Brady was...... and id say Leinart is the most polished QB coming out of college in a LONG time.

 

Dare I say...Peyton Manning?

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Young is heads above Vick-can pass with touch-looks to pass IF play is called-

 

Has better size and will likely be more durable running the ball.

 

Will not last until the second round-NFL Quarterbacking is not good enough to keep him on the board that long :atwork

Edited by klaus kinski

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QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 04:30 PM)
Broncos 27, Patriots 13

 

Their arm strength is very similar, they both make very good decisions as QBs(as opposed to the idea you somehow got that Leinart makes bad decisions based off of 1 f***ing game), they are both very accurate QBs, can both check down and find the open receiver...and on top of that, Leinart has a little more mobility than Brady.

 

Obviously, I'm not suggesting Leinart is the next Tom Brady...but to compare him to Ken Dorsey is a f***ing insult to every scout and draft guru in the world.  I guarantee you that Matt Leinart is atleast an average QB in the NFL, something Ken Dorsey will almost never be.

 

But thanks for playing.

 

When Leinart has 3 Super Bowl rings, I'll allow him a bad big game. Also, Leinart currently has a resume very similar to Dorsey's, eerily similar in fact. I may be wrong about Leinart, and if so bring up this thread and i'll eat my crow, but I doubt that will be the case.

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QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jan 29, 2006 -> 05:40 PM)
Tom Brady has much more arm strength than Leinart from what ive seen of both but still... at this point of his career Leinart > what Brady was...... and id say Leinart is the most polished QB coming out of college in a LONG time.

 

Yeah, Brady was so "polished" coming out of college that he was a 6th round pick. Even in his senior year he was solid but not spectacular, throwing for about 215 YPG with 20 TD and 6 INT. He was decidedly average his junior year, throwing 15 TD's and 12 INT's. He also had a year and a half in the pros before he took the field.

 

Peyton Manning and Dan Marino get my votes for most polished coming out of college.

 

Edit- Sorry, I totally read that post wrong when I was commenting on it. I agree, Leinart seems to be among the more NFL ready QB's in recent history.

Edited by ZoomSlowik

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QUOTE(DukeNukeEm @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 10:16 PM)
Imagine Vince Young with the two best RBs in the game, the best OL in the game, the best WR not named Rice or Johnson in the game and Dom Byrd.

 

Leinart is a product of his teammates

 

It's not like Young was playing with the local Pee Wee league team around him. He played with a well above average line in front of him, probably on the same level as USC's. Also, his skill position players weren't as explosive as USC's guys, but they were very highly recruited players that were pretty productive. Thomas was a more productive receiving TE than Byrd, Sweed is a talented receiver that would probably be just about as productive as the USC guys with a more pass oriented offense, and Young and Taylor are both very explosive players. Neither QB has been in a whole lot of close games the last two years. In fact, Leinart has probably had to do a lot more in close games than Young has.

 

Using the arguments that his teammates did all the work isn't a very good line of reasoning to use because it will vary from player to player. Dorsey definitely seemed to be a product of the players, but some people were also using that logic when comparing Peyton Manning to Ryan Leaf. You could also argue the same thing with Tom Brady at Michigan (David Terrell, A-Train, good line) or Carson Palmer at USC (Williams/Colbert might have been more explosive than Jarrett/Smith). Maybe Leinart isn't the next great quarterback and he doesn't appear to be as gifted as those guys, but judging him based on the team he played for is pretty asanine.

 

As for Young vs Leinart, I'd say both are far from a lock to be above average NFL QB's. I'd say Leinart has the better chance to be decent, but if Young pans out he will be exponentially better. Both have their strengths. Leinart has shown a pretty good ability to read the defense and get the ball to the right guy, usually in stride because he has better accuracy. Young has also shown some ability to read the defense, although he doesn't throw as much. His major strength is his his speed and his ability to break tackles on the run. Leinart's skills probably translate better to the NFL, since Young isn't going to be able to run around and through every defense he faces. However, Young is also clearly the more naturally gifted QB.

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QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 01:46 AM)
When Leinart has 3 Super Bowl rings, I'll allow him a bad big game.  Also, Leinart currently has a resume very similar to Dorsey's, eerily similar in fact.  I may be wrong about Leinart, and if so bring up this thread and i'll eat my crow, but I doubt that will be the case.

 

04 Rose Bowl VS Michigan - 23/34, 327 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT

05 Orange Bowl VS Oklahoma - 18/35, 332 yards, 5 TD, 0 INT

06 Rose Bowl VS Texas - 29/40, 365 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT

 

Those are his lines in every bowl game he played in college. I honestly don't see a horribly bad game in there to begin with...but it's also a little point of interest to see that he, you know, kind of had success in big games before too. Is it his fault the USC defense was not capable of shutting down the Texas offense whatsoever? In the end, 38 points should be more than enough points to win a game if your defense has a so-so day...Vince Young flatout manhandled them and took advantage of one of the lone USC weaknesses.

 

The fact that he had won 2 national championships before - albeit one shared national championship - tells me more than I need to know about his big game abilities. The fact remains that Leinart not only has produced much more than Dorsey did in college, but he's also more polished and much more talented overall. If Leinart is anything worse than average, I'll be surprised as hell.

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QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 03:46 PM)
04 Rose Bowl VS Michigan - 23/34, 327 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT

05 Orange Bowl VS Oklahoma - 18/35, 332 yards, 5 TD, 0 INT

06 Rose Bowl VS Texas - 29/40, 365 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT

 

Those are his lines in every bowl game he played in college. I honestly don't see a horribly bad game in there to begin with...but it's also a little point of interest to see that he, you know, kind of had success in big games before too.  Is it his fault the USC defense was not capable of shutting down the Texas offense whatsoever?  In the end, 38 points should be more than enough points to win a game if your defense has a so-so day...Vince Young flatout manhandled them and took advantage of one of the lone USC weaknesses.

 

The fact that he had won 2 national championships before - albeit one shared national championship - tells me more than I need to know about his big game abilities.  The fact remains that Leinart not only has produced much more than Dorsey did in college, but he's also more polished and much more talented overall.  If Leinart is anything worse than average, I'll be surprised as hell.

 

The "fact" that Leinart produced more? They both had a 34 game winning streak, 1 BCS title, a ton of talent, and poor arm strength. Dorsey played pretty well in his bowl games too. As of now, there is no difference between the 2 except one of them throws with his left hand. Come back in 5 years, and maybe this won't be the case.

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QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 02:46 AM)
When Leinart has 3 Super Bowl rings, I'll allow him a bad big game.  Also, Leinart currently has a resume very similar to Dorsey's, eerily similar in fact.  I may be wrong about Leinart, and if so bring up this thread and i'll eat my crow, but I doubt that will be the case.

 

Peyton Manning had an even weaker resume than those two guys and never did anything in a major game against a strong opponent in his whole career until last season. So did a lot of other guys, but I digress. Peyton didn't beat Florida once in his career and got blasted in his senior year by Nebraska in the Orange Bowl. He won a couple of bowl games, but the only one he played a major role in was the drubbing of NU in the Citrus Bowl. He was the same kind of player: great numbers on a great team who's best asset was his intelligence and leadership.

 

So now everyone that plays on a good team, puts up ridiculous numbers, and has one or two bad games is a scrub that isn't going to do anything in the NFL. Jesus.

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QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jan 28, 2006 -> 08:57 AM)
Yeah, on that "Friday Football" garbage on ESPNEWS (which I was only watching because I was at home sick as a dog), Merril Hoge said "once people see the tape on Vince Young, he will fall and fall fast.....and come April, be a 4th round, 2nd day pick".  Afterwards, he had a 10 minute discussion on it too, so he was obviously serious.

 

Comments?  :headshake  :rolly

 

Merrill Hodge is an idiot. That is all.

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It's not like Young was playing with the local Pee Wee league team around him. He played with a well above average line in front of him, probably on the same level as USC's. Also, his skill position players weren't as explosive as USC's guys, but they were very highly recruited players that were pretty productive. Thomas was a more productive receiving TE than Byrd, Sweed is a talented receiver that would probably be just about as productive as the USC guys with a more pass oriented offense, and Young and Taylor are both very explosive players. Neither QB has been in a whole lot of close games the last two years. In fact, Leinart has probably had to do a lot more in close games than Young has.

 

Using the arguments that his teammates did all the work isn't a very good line of reasoning to use because it will vary from player to player. Dorsey definitely seemed to be a product of the players, but some people were also using that logic when comparing Peyton Manning to Ryan Leaf. You could also argue the same thing with Tom Brady at Michigan (David Terrell, A-Train, good line) or Carson Palmer at USC (Williams/Colbert might have been more explosive than Jarrett/Smith). Maybe Leinart isn't the next great quarterback and he doesn't appear to be as gifted as those guys, but judging him based on the team he played for is pretty asanine.

 

As for Young vs Leinart, I'd say both are far from a lock to be above average NFL QB's. I'd say Leinart has the better chance to be decent, but if Young pans out he will be exponentially better. Both have their strengths. Leinart has shown a pretty good ability to read the defense and get the ball to the right guy, usually in stride because he has better accuracy. Young has also shown some ability to read the defense, although he doesn't throw as much. His major strength is his his speed and his ability to break tackles on the run. Leinart's skills probably translate better to the NFL, since Young isn't going to be able to run around and through every defense he faces. However, Young is also clearly the more naturally gifted QB.

 

OK. you didnt read my question..

 

I asked IMAGINE IF VINCE YOUNG was the USC QB. And not Matt Leinart..

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QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 03:53 PM)
The "fact" that Leinart produced more?  They both had a 34 game winning streak, 1 BCS title, a ton of talent, and poor arm strength.  Dorsey played pretty well in his bowl games too.  As of now, there is no difference between the 2 except one of them throws with his left hand.  Come back in 5 years, and maybe this won't be the case.

 

 

 

Dorsey

00 - 188/322(58.4%), 2737 yards, 25 TD, 5 INT

01 - 184/318(57.9%), 2652 yards, 23 TD, 9 INT

02 - 222/393(56.5%), 3369 yards, 28 TD, 12 INT

 

Leinart

03 - 255/402(63.4%), 3556 yards, 38 TD, 9 INT

04 - 269/418(65.3%), 3322 yards, 33 TD, 6 INT

05 - 283/431(65.7%), 3815 yards, 28 TD, 8 INT

 

Looks to me like Leinart did indeed produce a little better than Dorsey...and he somehow threw for a career high in yards in 2005 with the Heisman winner in his backfield :huh

 

They both had a 34 game winning streak, 1 BCS title, a ton of talent, and poor arm strength.

 

Winning streaks and BCS titles are horrible ways to judge players...that is mere coincidence and has nothing to do with the players themselves. Both are team accomplishments, and it is truly incredible how good both of those 2 teams really were.

 

Scouts also thought so highly of Dorsey's talent the 49ers "stole" him in the late 7th round, where as Leinart is a projected top 3 pick.

 

And the last one is somewhat true, but from what I have seen of Leinart, he can put some heat on the ball and make a tight pass if need be, and he throws a pretty soft ball too, where as from what I remember of Dorsey, he did not have the same ability...I of course may be wrong on that though.

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QUOTE(DukeNukeEm @ Jan 30, 2006 -> 05:51 PM)
OK.  you didnt read my question..

 

I asked IMAGINE IF VINCE YOUNG was the USC QB.  And not Matt Leinart..

 

I really don't think there would be any difference. In fact, Young's production could suffer playing in a pro-style offense as opposed to always being in the shotgun and being able to read the defense as the play develops rather than before the snap. Leinart might actually be a better fit in Texas' offense (outside of the option plays) because he could just sit in the pocket and carve people up without having to drop back. I really don't think that there would be enough of a difference in raw talent level between the two receiving corps to drastically hinder Leinart's numbers.

Edited by ZoomSlowik

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For bump purposes, yesterday Hoge changed his tune. Now he says that "unbeliveably" Vince Young will still be a top 10 pick, but he's still only 2nd day worthy and whoever drafts him will be fired in 2 years. Damn is he bitter about being wrong, I hope he takes his lumps when he's wrong about Vince.

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The person won't get fired in two years, but he's right about how Vince Young will be in the pros.

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