fathom Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Balta....even though I'm not happy with our bullpen, that was an excellent post. Well done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 04:34 PM) He didn't just overlook it, he pissed away the depth we had there. Trading for Vazquez is fine and dandy, but if your going to give up 2/6th's of our pen and lose another 1/3rd do to injury I expect to see quality replacements brought in. I have no problem developing a guy or so to start the seaosn or even 2 if we had 4 quality relievers that are proven, but this many, its flat out ridiculous. In this day and age bullpens are a key to not only making the playoffs but winning in the playoffs and I fear we will be blowing games left and right and well our farm system doesn't exactly have the depth to go out and acquire 3 GOOD relievers and hell possibly a closer. A few things: The Marte deal was insurance in case a few position players went down--Crede, Pods, Dye, Anderson goes bust. Seeing how no one trusted Marte, and he wasn't getting in games at the end, getting 8 guys to fill his specialist spot made sense. Much was made of Logan making it, but he earned the spot. A slight downgrade, intially. Yet probably an upgrade by season's end. Vazquez for Vizcaino could be debated. But BMac replaced Viz, and strengthened the rotation. An upgrade IMO. The only spot KW didn't fill was a backup for Hermanson. His outlook was decent, though, by all accounts. That's the biggest gripe. But there were few guys like Hermanson [set up/ closer] available this offseason. And it didn't make sense at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(fathom @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 11:46 AM) Not a soul would have complained if we would have just replaced them with legit major league pitchers. Also, I think that the crapiness that has been Bobby Jenks so far is showing how uncertain our bullpen is. I don't think we should have approached the off-season with the expectation that Bobby Jenks was going to suck. No team can put 3 or 4 closer types in the pen. What was our alternative, anyway? Giving a 3yr/$18M contract to the Farns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(fathom @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 08:45 AM) Vizcaino didn't suck. He had about 4 or 5 bad games, but besides that, he was pretty reliable. So many of us were busy bashing him, that we overlooked how many big outs he actually got for us. You know full well that one of the reasons he only wound up having 4-5 bad games was that there were many occasions where he got himself in trouble and was bailed out by Hermanson, Politte, and Cotts. Especially early in the year. His WHIP was 1.47 last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Marte and Vizcaino pretty much sucked most of the year. If the sox are competitive, trades will be made. I for one am really excited for the progress of Thorton and Boone boy. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't miss Marte at all. I think he will still be the same headcase that he was last season. He might have a decent season with the Pirates pitching in no-pressure meaningless games but I doubt he would have been successful in Chicago with Ozzie and the fans still on his ass. But I was completely wrong about hating on Vizcaino last season. I would give up my left nut for a guy like him in the pen right about now. I just thought that Hermanson would be healthy and able to replace him just fine as our mop-up guy / 6th inning man this year. I thought wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 (edited) Every year we have ?s in our bullpen. We have had a merry go round on the closer scene for the last 5 years. It usually winds up working one way or another. I am not as worried about our bullpen, and think it will figure itself out. Last year Marte for the 2nd half of the year was terrible. He quit on the team during the final stretch of the season, and only based on sure necessity we kept him on the team. He couldnt get lefties out, he was more likely to plunk Haftner or give up a dong than K him. Hermanson was a warrior, but he was hurt for the 2nd half of last season. He was so hurt they took a AA guy and brought him up making him a closer during the stretch run. He really didnt pitch that much in the 2nd half. Vizcaino was a mix, sometimes he was pretty good, sometimes he was Mike Jackson part II. He had a mid 90s fastball, but never threw it. Remember last year we started out with an iffy pen. Shingo was getting rocked like Billy Koch. Cotts was 1 year removed from walking the world. Hermanson was a bad closer from San Francisco that people thought was 5th starter insurance for El Duque. Jenks was some headcase that wasnt even a blip on the radar outside of his arm and his injury issues. Trust me it will all figure itself out or Ozzie will kick their asses out. Edited March 31, 2006 by southsideirish71 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 So it comes down to getting "proven" guys vs. young guys the White Sox brass likes. Who's to say if we're worried about Cotts and Politte coming back to earth, that other proven arms KW might have acquired wouldn't come back to earth too? It would've been easiest for them to keep Javier Lopez and send Boone Logan out. After all Lopez did a serviceable job this spring. But they really like what Logan has shown and now they'll see if he can hack it. If not they have a veteran in Lopez to call up. That's not the worst scenario. Personally I'm most worried about the innings eater role. I was not a Vizcaino basher last year because I know how important his role is, he always took the ball and pitched and ate innings. You are gonna get blown out from time to time, it happens and you need a guy like Vizcaino. I hope Thornton can fill his shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(JimH @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 08:52 AM) Personally I'm most worried about the innings eater role. I was not a Vizcaino basher last year because I know how important his role is, he always took the ball and pitched and ate innings. You are gonna get blown out from time to time, it happens and you need a guy like Vizcaino. I hope Thornton can fill his shoes. Unless you're expecting one of the starters to go down, I think our "Innings eater" is Brandon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 10:53 AM) Unless you're expecting one of the starters to go down, I think our "Innings eater" is Brandon. I think they are priming Brandon for the back end of the pen right now because of his stuff. Thorton is the innings eater right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Just a couple of things: - I think we can all agree that Marte had to go. - If Jenks can't do a solid job as a closer, our bullpen is in a lot of trouble. - I hope it doesn't sound like some of us are doing too much b****ing. We'd much rather be in this position then worrying how Felix Diaz or Arnie Munoz will do as the 5th starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I think they are priming Brandon for the back end of the pen right now because of his stuff. Thorton is the innings eater right now. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep, even Cooper said this. They want McCarthy pitching the higher pressure / more meaningful innings and Thornton pitching long relief / mop-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 11:55 AM) I think they are priming Brandon for the back end of the pen right now because of his stuff. Thorton is the innings eater right now. Yeah, I agree. Innings eater is a synonym for worst pitcher in the bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Unless you're expecting one of the starters to go down, I think our "Innings eater" is Brandon. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would actually say Thornton, but they will mix and match no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Yeah, I agree. Innings eater is a synonym for worst pitcher in the bullpen. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, I think "mop-up man" is a better synonym for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RME JICO Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I am also concerned with the bullpen, but at the same time, it looks like they will have less of an impact this year. The biggest factor is going to be Vazquez. He is going to eat a lot more than the 128IP that El Duque did in 2005. Adding up all the innings that the departed pitchers gave last year (too include Hermie to injury), the group had the following stats: 32-27 Record 351.1 IP 4.46 ERA 1.47 WHIP Now you can project that Vazquez is going to eat about 200IP, leaving 151IP for the entire bullpen (excluding Cotts/Politte). I did not include McCarthy's 67IP or Jenks 39IP from last year. McCarthy will probably get an extra 30IP over his 05' total and Jenks should end up with around 70IP. That leaves about 90IP for Logan and Thornton assuming all the pitchers have approximately the same amount of innings as last year. So if those pitchers can go out and duplicate a 4.46 ERA with a 1.47 WHIP, the Sox would be better off than last year. That is not taking into account that the Sox have a more potent offense and stronger bench which will also take pressure off the bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 10:55 AM) I think they are priming Brandon for the back end of the pen right now because of his stuff. Thorton is the innings eater right now. I agree that this would seem to be the plan. McMarthy in the Hermanson role and Thornton in the innings role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(fathom @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 08:45 AM) Vizcaino didn't suck. He had about 4 or 5 bad games, but besides that, he was pretty reliable. So many of us were busy bashing him, that we overlooked how many big outs he actually got for us. Plus he was the type of guy that you could run out 3 or 4 days in a row and he'd only get better. I couldn't believe how much hate Viz took because he had a few awful appearances early on. He was a horse out of our pen and will be missed. Even Marte had his bright spots for at least half of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSox05 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Got a rookie in the outfield too. Our relief pitching has been talked about on here more than ESPN talks about barry bonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSox05 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Got a rookie in the outfield too. Our relief pitching has been talked about on here more than ESPN talks about barry bonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 One thing that seems to be getting lost in this discussion is that we had this same bullpen problem last year. Talent-wise, our 'pen wasn't very good last year. (Anyone remember Shingo?) The key was that a few of them had career years in '05... Hermanson - 2.04 ERA vs. career 4.21 + 34 SV Politte - 2.00 ERA vs. career 4.06 Cotts - 1.94 ERA vs. career 4.27 We got 180 innings out of those three. Not bad. However, I'm only really expecting Cotts to have another good year (although probably not THAT good). The other two are on the down-slopes of their careers. And, of course, it didn't hurt than Jenks came out of nowhere to save the day when Hermanson went down. I didn't mind losing Marte the headcase or 40-year-old El Duque who didn't want to pitch out of the 'pen anyway. Vizcaino is the only significant loss, IMO. And if somebody dangles Vazquez in front of you for a decent-but-not-great middle reliever, well, you have to make that deal. Unfortunately, we also had a hitting problem last year that was even more dire. KW's top priorities were re-signing Paulie and adding another power-hitter to the lineup to replace Carlos/Frank. That was Priority #1 and it was handled perfectly. Agreed that KW probably should've looked into acquiring another veteran long reliever (Tavarez and King were both free agents, IIRC). Maybe he did, but was outrageously out-bid. Nobody knows. However, it's going to take about three veteran relievers to really fix this problem. One could argue the money for Vazquez's contract should've been spent there. One could also argue that acquiring Vazquez gives the Sox the depth to deal a starting pitcher for a Scott Shields or a Brad Lidge in July. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 11:10 AM) Plus he was the type of guy that you could run out 3 or 4 days in a row and he'd only get better. I couldn't believe how much hate Viz took because he had a few awful appearances early on. He was a horse out of our pen and will be missed. Even Marte had his bright spots for at least half of the season. Viz wasnt going to get the amount of work he would need to be effective here. We have too many pitchers going deep into games. He was much better with a lot of work, but there were times last year and there will be times this year that our starters go 7 to 8 deep in games and there just isnt enough innings for a rubber arm like Viz that constantly needs action to maintain his effectiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Got a rookie in the outfield too. Our relief pitching has been talked about on here more than ESPN talks about barry bonds. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> All he has to do is worry about playing defense. His bat won't matter too much because he is replacing Rowand's .736 OPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 09:15 AM) Got a rookie in the outfield too. Our relief pitching has been talked about on here more than ESPN talks about barry bonds. But were developing him right. He's going to be the final hitter in the lineup and he's going to have very little pressure on him. The same can't be said for all the guys in the pen. Remember, all this said I fully expect Kenny to make a trade (probably sooner rather than later) and maybe even a 2nd deal (if something happens and Jenks can get his velocity back cause he was a lazy bum in the offseason) and we will win the division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Mar 31, 2006 -> 11:19 AM) But were developing him right. He's going to be the final hitter in the lineup and he's going to have very little pressure on him. The same can't be said for all the guys in the pen. Remember, all this said I fully expect Kenny to make a trade (probably sooner rather than later) and maybe even a 2nd deal (if something happens and Jenks can get his velocity back cause he was a lazy bum in the offseason) and we will win the division. Ozzie said yesterday that Jenks was at 97-98 on the gun. That is just about where he needs to be to start the season. If he throws strikes and gets ahead he will be fine. If he gets into hitters counts and walks people he will get mashed. I dont care how hard he throws. I am as big of a Jenks fan as you get on this board, but he needs to throw strikes to be effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSH2005 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 (edited) But were developing him right. He's going to be the final hitter in the lineup and he's going to have very little pressure on him. The same can't be said for all the guys in the pen. Remember, all this said I fully expect Kenny to make a trade (probably sooner rather than later) and maybe even a 2nd deal (if something happens and Jenks can get his velocity back cause he was a lazy bum in the offseason) and we will win the division. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep, there's no problem with starting a rookie. Contending teams develop talent all the time. Just look at the Red Sox (1B Kevin Youkilis) and the Angels (1B Casey Kotchman). They are throwing those guys at the bottom of their lineups and depending on them, just like the Sox are doing with Anderson. Edited March 31, 2006 by SSH2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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