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ACLU gets prayer banned at a HS graduation ceremony.......

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QUOTE(Soxbadger @ May 22, 2006 -> 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thus my answer is, to completely seperate church and state. This approach would mean that state funded schools, would have to strictly comply. They could not have prayer at graduation, school functions, etc. Not because it is wrong, but just because it makes it simpler. If people want to say a prayer, go down to your local chuch, synagogue, mosque, and have a grand old time. At private schools of course anythin goes as they are private institutions and can do whatever they want. So if prayer is so important, you can chose to go to the private school, or say a little prayer to yourself.

I will never understand why this concept is so hard to grasp. I really wonder what the reaction would be if a bunch of students organized a muslim prayer during a PUBLIC high school event somewhere in the southern states.

 

I don't want my tax dollars supporting public schools that allow prayers of any kind or faith.

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If i were that one kid, I would have brought a big sign that said "I Graduated! Thank You Satan, Dark Lord and Master!" And held it up while the Our Father was being recited. You exercise your freedom of religion, I'll exercise mine, and in short time we'll see that Christian value system in full effect.

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QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ May 22, 2006 -> 04:44 PM)
If i were that one kid, I would have brought a big sign that said "I Graduated! Thank You Satan, Dark Lord and Master!" And held it up while the Our Father was being recited. You exercise your freedom of religion, I'll exercise mine, and in short time we'll see that Christian value system in full effect.

 

:lolhitting

 

I actually like these conflicts. It makes for great entertainment. Republicans always show their true colors: they want to legislate every aspect of our lives, starting with morality. They wipe their ass with the constitution. They've been in control of all three branches and they still whine like little b****es about "activist leftist judges." They don't want democracy, they want theocracy. And I say let them have it. Speed the revolution.

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The real problem is that people nowadays tend to get 'offended' or 'outraged' just for the sake of doing so. I went to a colege that was heavily affiliated with the methodist church. I am not Methodist. I was not offended when a Methodist preacher said a prayer at my graduation ceremony. I considered it a form of well-wishing, and decided I could use all the help I could get. The people offended at this prayer at the graduation ceremony: would you be offended if while at the same event, you sneezed and a teacher turned and said "God bless you"? I mean, coming from a teacher, in a school, OMG, state sponsorship of religion!

 

Ginger, you say that republicans don't want democracy, they want a theocracy. I will grant you that there are probably some that do, maybe the same amount of Democrats that want communism or Socialism in some form or another. The majority just are tired of people trying to change what they have been doing and what isn't really hurting anyone. That Muslim woman that complained was not hurt by the fact that there was a prayer said. She was 'offended', just as all the others were 'offended' at her for thinking her so-called rights were more important than the rest of the class. She does not have a right to be free from offense. Ideally, I think religious groups should just draw a line somewhere, and stick to it. Give in to prayer in school, and but draw a line somewhere and just stick to it. However, I believe the thinking is along the same lines as the NRA and the Pro-Choice movements. They feel if they give in anywhere, the 'opposition' will never stop, they will just keep pecking away until they win completely.

 

Santo=dorf, you don't want your tax dollars supporting public schools that allow prayers of any kind or faith. Does that include Muslim prayer, which many schools are trying to figure out just how to incorporate into the school day? And by not allowing prayer of any kind, aren' they violating the same 1st ammendment rights of people who want to pray during school? If a kid wants to pray during study hall, why stop him? Schools allowing prayer isn't the problem, it is when they sponsor it that I can see a problem. If the Valedictiorian always gets to speak at graduation, and the one year that person decides to give a prayer, well that wasn't school supported speech.

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QUOTE(EvilMonkey @ May 22, 2006 -> 09:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Santo=dorf, you don't want your tax dollars supporting public schools that allow prayers of any kind or faith. Does that include Muslim prayer, which many schools are trying to figure out just how to incorporate into the school day? And by not allowing prayer of any kind, aren' they violating the same 1st ammendment rights of people who want to pray during school? If a kid wants to pray during study hall, why stop him? Schools allowing prayer isn't the problem, it is when they sponsor it that I can see a problem. If the Valedictiorian always gets to speak at graduation, and the one year that person decides to give a prayer, well that wasn't school supported speech.

I don't want any prayers of any kind to be in public schools, and by that I mean having a Principal say the our Father before school starts, a teacher saying a prayer before class, or a High School football coach forcing his players to hold hands and pray. It's just not appropirate.

 

It's ok for a student to keep a prayer to himself, or have a group of friends get together before school around the flag pole and pray (they did in my school,) but my tax dollars aren't supporting them as much as the high school's football team, Principal's salary, and teacher's salary.

 

I suppose it's ok for high schoolers to run around the halls dropping f bombs, racist or sexist terms because it's in the first ammendment?

:unsure:

 

As for the valedictorian comment, I can't imagine a high school not preapproving a speech for graduation. If a school allows for a student to say a prayer in a PUBLIC school, they should be just as embarrassed for letting a valedictorian say "f*** this school. I'm outie!"

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QUOTE(EvilMonkey @ May 22, 2006 -> 09:11 PM)
The real problem is that people nowadays tend to get 'offended' or 'outraged' just for the sake of doing so.

 

I feel the same way.

 

You can't just give the same respect towards a group of people's religion and prayers as they would for you by just respectfully staying silent for the minute or two that the prayer will last, particularly when the prayers represent the majority? It pains you that much that you have to cry, complain, and make a huge deal about it? Are people really that pussified?

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I don't want any prayers of any kind to be in public schools, and by that I mean having a Principal say the our Father before school starts, a teacher saying a prayer before class, or a High School football coach forcing his players to hold hands and pray. It's just not appropirate.

 

It's ok for a student to keep a prayer to himself, or have a group of friends get together before school around the flag pole and pray (they did in my school,) but my tax dollars aren't supporting them as much as the high school's football team, Principal's salary, and teacher's salary.

 

 

I totally agree forced religion is not acceptable.

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QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ May 21, 2006 -> 11:30 AM)
The best part was seeing how truly 'Christian' these students were. "Gabe McNeil said during a rehearsal on Thursday, other students booed the student suspected of filing the challenge when he walked across the stage.

 

"They've been giving him crap," McNeil said."

 

So, they're all for the f***ing grandstanding but not actually standing up for the principles that their religion actually believes. What a bunch of f***ing hack morons.

 

And to combat the last sentence, America was not founded in any sense by the Christian religion (or so Washington wrote in the unanimously passed Treaty of Tripoli) The Founders were Deists, not Christians.

 

LCR,

 

How about quoting the entire part about how they feel about this kid? Not everyone booed him. Only what helps your argument, huh?

 

 

Before the graduation ceremony, some students said they weren't upset with the classmate that brought the legal challenge, just disappointed that there wouldn't be a sanctioned prayer during the ceremony.

 

"There's no hard feelings toward him whatsoever. That was his opinion and it was something that he felt," graduating senior Mandy Chapman said.

 

Gabe McNeil said during a rehearsal on Thursday, other students booed the student suspected of filing the challenge when he walked across the stage.

 

"They've been giving him crap," McNeil said.

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Got to say I agree with the ACLU here. I'm not comfortable with government endorsing one religion and promoting it to its citizens.

 

I read another post here that says that only the majority religion should be observed.... I think thats pretty silly. The whole purpose of the constitution was to protect the rights of all people... not just the majority.

 

I'm not saying that the prayer is offensive, wrong, evil or anything like that. But for a local government to stand up and heartily endorse a specific theology, be it christian, islam, judaism, whatever, is wrong.

 

I think some of you confuse the right to free speech and the free practice. In no way, does not saying a prayer at a graduation, in class, or wherever impair free speech or free practice. It does not stop people from praying on their own.

 

Presumably, local government tax dollars go towards funding a graduation. As long as the government is paying for the electricity that runs the microphone and speakers, I think there is no reason to impose or endorse a particular religion.

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QUOTE(EvilMonkey @ May 22, 2006 -> 07:11 PM)
The real problem is that people nowadays tend to get 'offended' or 'outraged' just for the sake of doing so.

 

Ginger, you say that republicans don't want democracy, they want a theocracy. I will grant you that there are probably some that do, maybe the same amount of Democrats that want communism or Socialism in some form or another.

 

 

on that we agree. Extremes on both sides. I think some on the left have an irrational fear of extreme right wingers that colors their view of ALL republicans, and the same is true of Bushies who fear a socialized nation run by married homosexuals.

 

wouldn't it be beautiful to just clean house and start all over?

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QUOTE(samclemens @ May 21, 2006 -> 04:36 PM)
i dont want our country to be a white room with no pictures on the wall.

Then move to Ave Maria, Florida.

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QUOTE(samclemens @ May 21, 2006 -> 05:36 PM)
laissez-faire, baby.

 

There is nothing in the phrase "laissez-faire" that would insinuate school prayer.

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Here's a liberal Democrat that also prays and feels my rights are violated when I can't. I believe I have freedom of speech also.

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QUOTE(Texsox @ May 23, 2006 -> 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here's a liberal Democrat that also prays and feels my rights are violated when I can't. I believe I have freedom of speech also.

Even if it means violating another part of the Constitution?

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QUOTE(Texsox @ May 23, 2006 -> 03:38 PM)
Here's a liberal Democrat that also prays and feels my rights are violated when I can't. I believe I have freedom of speech also.

 

has anyone ever stopped you from bowing your head and praying?

 

If a kid wants to say grace before eating his lunch in a public school, no one is stopping him or her. Nor would they ever try.

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QUOTE(The Ginger Kid @ May 24, 2006 -> 01:57 AM)
has anyone ever stopped you from bowing your head and praying?

 

If a kid wants to say grace before eating his lunch in a public school, no one is stopping him or her. Nor would they ever try.

 

And if 100 kids want to get together and pray at lunch, it does get banned. What is wrong with someone sitting quietly while the majority in attendance at an event offer grace or any prayer? I respect the beliefs of everyone, including those that do not belief in a higher power. I have sat quietly during Hindu ceremonies, and probably every other major religion. If the entire school has to go to a rally for the basketball team, why can't the graduation class say a prayer?

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QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ May 24, 2006 -> 08:52 AM)
When has 100 kids spontaneously getting together to pray been banned?

 

I can google it. There have been long standing traditions, like at some Texas football games that have been blocked, then when a couple kids have started, they have been silenced. Stuff like that.

 

Better question, why is it ok to get everyone together to cheer the football team during an assembly, but not ok if a prayer is offered? I have never seen a survey where the majority where offended or wanted the prayer banned. It is usually one or a handfull at most. To me, the freedom of speech of the majority is being curtailed.

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If its school sponsored speech, if the administration schedules it and encourages it, its establishment. If its sponatneous, it's exercising your first amendment rights.

 

Why is this so complicated?

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QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ May 24, 2006 -> 09:31 AM)
If its school sponsored speech, if the administration schedules it and encourages it, its establishment. If its sponatneous, it's exercising your first amendment rights.

 

Why is this so complicated?

 

That's where you get into conflict. If 100 kids decide to pray before a basketball game, it's not spontaneous. If they decide to do before every game, it's not spontaneous. Yet, if it's banned, their first amendment rights are being denied.

Edited by YASNY

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QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ May 24, 2006 -> 09:31 AM)
If its school sponsored speech, if the administration schedules it and encourages it, its establishment. If its sponatneous, it's exercising your first amendment rights.

 

Why is this so complicated?

^^^^^^^^^^

And that right there is the bottom line on this. Thank you, Rex.

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YASNY,

 

I think there are 2 different fact patterns here.

 

Scenario 1

 

School promotes prayer at an assembly, graduation.

 

Scenario 2

 

Students on their own start to pray.

 

I would think that a judge would be well versed in the law enough to see the difference between scenario 1 and 2. In scenario 2, there is no govt action, therefore you can not invoke the seperation of church and state. The Amendments of the constitution only apply to government action, therefore since the students are not part of the govt, they should face no problem legally.

 

On the other hand, we all know that schools do not have to allow full expression of speech. Therefore it would come down to school policy, and it would be up to the school to decide.

 

The first amendment does not protect religion or speech absolutely. Instead it places a premium on their protection, and makes it much harder to restrict speech or religion.

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Big picture here is the thing I don't get... 100 kids decide to get together and pray at a public school graduation and that equals government endorsement of religion. Whereas schools, federal, state and local governments get together, give classes, materials, videos, babysitting, and birth control out and they aren't endorsing teenage and/or premartial sex.

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100 kids getting together and praying at a graduation is not establishment of religion unless the administration officially sanctions it. If it's in the program that the school puts on at taxpayer's expense, its establishment

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