Official Ozzie/Mariotti Thread

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 01:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya, this is so damn hard to figure out.

The White Sox were the most talented team in the game last year, alot of the times the most talented team wins.

 

Perhaps, it's harder to figure out why his job is so secure.

[Rowand44]

The White Sox were the most talented team in the game last year, alot of the times the most talented team wins.

 

Perhaps, it's harder to figure out why his job is so secure.

The Sox were the most talented team in the al central 01-04, the sox were the most talented team in baseball in 03, before ozzie talent never won out for the sox.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 02:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Sox were the most talented team in the al central 01-04, the sox were the most talented team in baseball in 03, before ozzie talent never won out for the sox.

 

Point taken, but how is this organization supposed to be a first class one when there manager is an embarassment?

[hammerhead johnson]

Ozzie Guillen cannot control himself, and his apologies are not apologies at all. Blaming everyone but yourself is not an apology, it's an embarrassment. The fact that he's turning this organization from one heading in the direction of first class to the gutter, all the while being a lackluster manager at best, only makes it harder to fathom why people want him in Chicago.

 

Ahh, get over it already. The vast majority of White Sox fans love Ozzie. I dunno what the f*** you are. You sure as hell ain't no White Sox fan.

 

He's taking us straight to the gutter = my ass

[whitesoxmanager]

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2006 -> 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Ozzie should use this as a wake-up call. If he continues down this path, his managing career will eventually have a very ugly ending.

 

I wish we could revisit a thread started last month about how somebody mentioned that OZZIE has a major problem and needed to be fined & apologize for his obscene laced tirade! LOL! & you all thought i was crazy...

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 02:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ahh, get over it already. The vast majority of White Sox fans love Ozzie. I dunno what the f*** you are. You sure as hell ain't no White Sox fan.

 

He's taking us straight to the gutter = my ass

 

The face of a classy organization doesn't do what Ozzie's been guilty of on numerous occassions. So what the hell is Kenny Williams talking about, are his goals to make the White Sox a classy organization or is this attendance boost simply due to being a winning team?

[Rowand44]

Point taken, but how is this organization supposed to be a first class one when there manager is an embarassment?

You have the right to think that way but Ozzie speaking his mind does not make him an embarrasment imo. He's never going to be politically correct but so be it, I couldn't care less about that. There are times when he could choose his words more carefully but when he's asked a question he is going to say exactly what is on his mind. I don't see how that's an embarrasment but that's your opinion so whatever.

[redandwhite]

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 02:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have the right to think that way but Ozzie speaking his mind does not make him an embarrasment imo. He's never going to be politically correct but so be it, I couldn't care less about that. There are times when he could choose his words more carefully but when he's asked a question he is going to say exactly what is on his mind. I don't see how that's an embarrasment but that's your opinion so whatever.

 

To each his own, I suppose.

[knightni]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Amz3...=yhoo&type=lgns

 

calls Ozzie a coward...

a T-shirt that reads "I ♥ TIGHT ENDS"

 

 

[mrzo2733]

Ozzie was my favorite player growing up. But his getting in trouble and putting the Sox in the spotlight for the wrong reason is really getting tiresome. Honestly, I wouldn't really have aproblem with the situation if it was an isolated incident. The thing is everybody, or a lot of normal, non-homophobic people use the word he did all the time. It doesn't make it right, but it definitely happens. My problem is that he has to have the control to not always say what is on his mind. I just feel like if things don't slow down a bit, he's not gonna b bemanaging us for more than a few more years.

[henry wiggins]

Another writer has a problem with Mariotti's writing crap about the Sox while avoiding the clubhouse:

 

Guillen's tirade clearly unacceptable

06/22/2006 8:03 PM ET

By Mike Bauman

 

CHICAGO -- In the first place, Ozzie Guillen's use of a three-letter derogatory term describing a homosexual was inexcusable, regardless of the context.

 

At this late date, reasonable people ought to be in nothing short of unanimous agreement on that point. The Commissioner of baseball is on board. On Thursday, Bud Selig announced punishment for this usage, fining the manager of the Chicago White Sox an undisclosed amount and ordering him to undergo sensitivity training.

 

"On Tuesday night, Ozzie Guillen used language that is offensive and completely unacceptable," Selig said Thursday. "Baseball is a social institution with responsibility to set appropriate tone and example. Conduct or language that reflects otherwise will not be tolerated. The use of slurs embarrasses the individual, the club and the game."

 

Guillen, who used the term in a tirade directed at a Chicago columnist, one day later apologized for using the term. Thursday, he said of his conversation with the Commissioner:

 

"Mr. Selig told me he had to do something about this. It wasn't good for me and baseball to be involved in this."

 

Guillen at one point suggested to reporters Thursday that he was going to talk less as a result of this episode. Forty-five minutes later, he was still talking to reporters. There is a chance that, aside from dropping the usage that got him in trouble, Guillen is not going to undergo a fundamental change in behavior.

 

"We're in a country where you have to be careful of what you say," Guillen said. "Besides that, I'm not going to change. I went to the dictionary this morning and learned a couple of different things to say about people."

 

Guillen reiterated his apology to the gay community, stating that "at least six" of his best friends in Chicago and his best friend in Venezuela were members of that community.

 

Guillen has said that in Venezuelan culture, the term he used had nothing to do with sexual orientation, but connoted a lack of manliness. That's fine, but after more than two decades in the States, Ozzie has a pretty good idea of what the term means in English, too. The use of the term remains outside the bounds of reasonable public behavior. But it also appears to be true at this point that when Guillen says he has nothing against the gay community, he is being completely sincere.

 

What follows are not mitigating circumstances, or extenuating circumstances, but they are relevant circumstances. Ozzie Guillen had no right to use the term in question, but he had plenty of reason to be angry with the columnist in question, Jay Mariotti of the Chicago Sun-Times.

 

Mariotti has criticized Guillen persistently and in highly personal ways. This happens between columnists and managers, but from Guillen's comments the last three days, what really bothers this particular manager is that this columnist never enters the White Sox clubhouse.

 

The columnist has acknowledged this publicly, stating that he fears for his personal safety in the White Sox clubhouse based on past incidents with Sox players.

 

The unwritten, but universally understood baseball writing code is that you can write whatever it is you feel you need to write about a manager or a coach or a player, as long as you show up in the clubhouse the next day so that the manager or coach or player can confront you about what you have written. This does not seem to be an unreasonable price to pay for this particular use of the First Amendment.

 

Most of Guillen's recent remarks regarding the columnist cannot be reproduced in full due to their profanity-laced nature. However, "He's garbage, still garbage, he's going to die as garbage," gives you the general flavor.

 

But Thursday, Guillen produced his bottom line on the argument with Mariotti: "The only thing I want, the people who own the paper, I want them to make him show up here and work."

 

You might ask, what effect will this controversy have on the actual White Sox baseball team, the defending World Series champions? The correct answer is none at all. In the two games after this episode began, the Sox scored 33 runs. They did not seem to be particularly demoralized. The players who have been around the block understand that Guillen is a verbal loose cannon, likely to say anything at any time. Other than that, the record clearly states that they not only enjoy playing for him, they also respect him.

 

There has never been another manager in baseball anything like Ozzie Guillen. This incident aside, he has generally exhibited a basic honesty in his public function as White Sox manager that has been, if sometimes a bit salty for general consumption, commendable.

 

If he emerges from this incident with a better grasp of what constitutes unacceptable speech, particularly for someone in his highly public position, that would obviously be good. But there is no reason to believe that he will come anywhere close to closing his mouth on a regular basis.

 

This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

 

MLB.com

[Controlled Chaos]

I wonder if anyone every went up to Ozzie and said he you know how you hear us say f.a.g all the time....that really menas a gay person.

 

I mean think about it...f.a.g isn't taught to anyone when learning English. You just hear other people use it. I'm sure "f***in f.a.g" has been uttered a s*** load of times in front of ozzie and it probably never was used to reference a "gay" person. It was just used as a swear. I'm just saying maybe he's telling the truth when he said he thought it meant somethign different.

 

Ah whatever..he'll go to his training and learn in our PC world there are things you don't say. Hopefully he'll be the same guy, but just learn some new words to use.

[The Critic]

Hopefully he'll be the same guy, but just learn some new words to use.

He's already said (jokingly) that he was learning new words to use.

I bet his sensitivity trainer comes away throwing F-bombs after meeting Ozzie.

Ozzie's going to remain who he is. He'll probably think a little more before he speaks, but that's a good thing.

I doubt he'll ever turn into a cliche-spewing zombie - that's not him. That's Jerry Manuel.

Like he said, he'll be on his boat in Venezuela before that happens.

[SoxFanInDallas]

Rick Morrissey has jumped into the fray against Marriotti

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...hitesox-utility

 

The right way: You write it, you show up

June 23, 2006

 

 

 

Sometimes I get the feeling that what I do for a living is a complete mystery to people.

 

Mostly I get this feeling when readers tell me to stick to the facts and stop introducing opinion into my columns.

This is like telling Mike Ditka to stop with the red meat already.

 

So it was an uphill battle even before Ozzie Guillen and Jay Mariotti started debating the professional obligations of a columnist.

 

The other day, the White Sox manager called the Sun-Times sports columnist a derogatory term for a homosexual, which is both inexcusable and indefensible, especially given Guillen's history.

 

In front of reporters last year, Guillen called out to a friend of his, "Hey, everybody, this guy's a homosexual! He's a child molester!" I took him to task in a column but cut him some slack because he comes from a different country, Venezuela, and culture. But once is enough.

 

What has spun out of the sludge-slinging between a manager and a member of the media is a discussion of how much accountability a columnist should have for what he or she writes. Actually, there really isn't much of a discussion in the journalistic community. Most writers agree the honorable thing is to face the people you criticize.

 

There is, however, much confusion among the public about what we do. So this amounts to an opportunity.

 

Guillen considers Mariotti a coward for not backing up his often-angry columns with even an occasional appearance in the Sox's clubhouse. Mariotti doesn't believe it's his duty as a columnist to meet and greet the people he has ripped.

 

Now I'm as likely to win a Pulitzer Prize as Guillen is of becoming the honorary chairman of the Gay Games in Chicago, but I do know one thing:

 

If you're a sports columnist, you show up in the clubhouse to face the music. It's a matter of fairness.

 

Let's say I criticize Sox catcher A.J. Pierzynski for something he did in a game. And let's say I do it in the Sunday Tribune, which has a circulation of about 960,000.

 

Isn't it reasonable for Pierzynski to have an opportunity to lash out at me in front of media and teammates in the clubhouse if I've treated him similarly in print? It seems pretty straightforward to me. It's what I was taught to do. It's what nearly all of the columnists in the country do. The honorable thing.

 

Look, it's not always fun walking into a locker room. Sometimes it's uncomfortable. But it comes with the territory of being a columnist.

 

Showing up also makes for a better columnist. Anybody can have an opinion. That's the beauty of being a walking, talking human being. But asking questions of players, managers and coaches helps give a columnist an informed opinion. It doesn't mean you're being co-opted by the people you're dealing with, not if you have an ounce of integrity. It means you're being thorough and professional. And you just might learn a thing or two.

 

One of the best and worst things that has happened to our society is the blog—best because everyone can have his say, not just us so-called experts; worst because everyone can say anything with almost no accountability.

 

I can't tell you how many ugly, hate-filled e-mails I've received from people who disagreed with something I wrote.

 

And I would bet that most of the e-mailers wouldn't be quite so nasty if they were talking with me face to face.

 

But something is happening in our society, and the blog is a reflection of it. So is TV. So is radio. So, for that matter, is Mavericks owner Mark Cuban.

 

Civility is going bye-bye. Public discussion is a bloody fistfight. And it's OK to be vapid as long as you're loud. Take a bow for that, Mr. Cuban.

 

I'll give Mariotti this: Whether he realizes it or not, he might have been the nation's first blogger, without actually writing one.

 

He has led the way by not leading the way to the locker room or the clubhouse. He writes what he wants without ever talking to a soul.

 

The only difference is he travels often to events, unlike bloggers, many of whom sit in their underwear all day and update, update, update.

 

But it's not the way most columnists do their jobs. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

Guillen spent part of Thursday night ripping Mariotti again.

 

I should know.

 

I was in the Sox's dugout, before the game. It was another day at the office for a lot of us.

 

rmorrissey@tribune.com

 

 

 

Copyright © 2006, The Chicago Tribune

[LosMediasBlancas]

good stuff from JR:

 

There's no excuse for his choice of words,'' Reinsdorf said of Guillen. "Although I understand in his country it might have a different meaning, he's been here a long time and he has to understand how people react.

 

"You have to separate that from the issue of the person he's talking about because that person is, indeed, a piece of garbage. So I understand why he was frustrated. But if he wants to attack somebody who attacked him, he has to do it in a politically correct way.''

[Princess Dye]

I wonder if anyone every went up to Ozzie and said he you know how you hear us say f.a.g all the time....that really menas a gay person.

 

I mean think about it...f.a.g isn't taught to anyone when learning English. You just hear other people use it. I'm sure "f***in f.a.g" has been uttered a s*** load of times in front of ozzie and it probably never was used to reference a "gay" person. It was just used as a swear. I'm just saying maybe he's telling the truth when he said he thought it meant somethign different.

 

Ah whatever..he'll go to his training and learn in our PC world there are things you don't say. Hopefully he'll be the same guy, but just learn some new words to use.

 

 

ozzie has been here a long time. his english is not bad at all for a non-native speaker, he says what he wants to with ease. he knows the contexts of that word.

 

he's right that in his native language, "maricon" has connotations that "f.a.g" doesn't. but he knows better than to apply the circumstances he grew up in...to everywhere. right and wrong is determined by time and place, whether we like it or not.

Edited June 23, 2006 by Princess Dye

[southsider2k5]

good stuff from JR:

 

There's no excuse for his choice of words,'' Reinsdorf said of Guillen. "Although I understand in his country it might have a different meaning, he's been here a long time and he has to understand how people react.

 

"You have to separate that from the issue of the person he's talking about because that person is, indeed, a piece of garbage. So I understand why he was frustrated. But if he wants to attack somebody who attacked him, he has to do it in a politically correct way.''

 

JER-RY JER-RY!!!

[My Dixie Normus]

"Baseball is a social institution with responsibility to set appropriate tone and example. Conduct or language that reflects otherwise will not be tolerated. The use of slurs embarrasses the individual, the club and the game." - Bud Selig.

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Bud,

 

[whitesoxfan101]

"Baseball is a social institution with responsibility to set appropriate tone and example. Conduct or language that reflects otherwise will not be tolerated. The use of slurs embarrasses the individual, the club and the game." - Bud Selig.

 

Hey Bud,

 

 

 

If we had post of the week, that's a winner. Also, the comments from Uncle Jerry are very well said, great job owner.

 

Perhaps, it's harder to figure out why his job is so secure.

 

Becaues he's a great BASEBALL MANAGER, and that's his job. Just because he's over the top and ignorant sometimes and pisses off people like you doesn't change the fact he's great at his job.

[southsideirish71]

The White Sox were the most talented team in the game last year, alot of the times the most talented team wins.

 

Perhaps, it's harder to figure out why his job is so secure.

 

Well thank god you have Classy Tito to help you get to the playoffs, only to get destroyed by the evil whitesox and their classless manager again.

Edited June 23, 2006 by southsideirish71

[fathom]

Ozzie Guillen cannot control himself, and his apologies are not apologies at all. Blaming everyone but yourself is not an apology, it's an embarrassment. The fact that he's turning this organization from one heading in the direction of first class to the gutter, all the while being a lackluster manager at best, only makes it harder to fathom why people want him in Chicago.

 

We're going into the gutter? I guessed I missed that memo. I've never been more optimistic about the future of the franchise. I've missed you on this site though....how's that Arroyo for Wily Mo trade working out?

JK redandwhite....your boy Lester looks good.

[Hangar18]

Very interesting piece today, considering the events of earlier in the week.

Mods, Is this an allowed thread?

[Rowand44]

Very interesting piece today, considering the events of earlier in the week.

Mods, Is this an allowed thread?

Hangar, if you want to discuss it it's already in the ozzie/mariotti thread so I'm just going to close this up.

[Hangar18]

Rick Morrissey has jumped into the fray against Marriotti

 

 

WOW. How about this huh? I previously mentioned in other conversations how the Trib/SunTimes are lockstep in unison in the way they cover things, namely sports teams. Mariotti flat out called the Trib out on this, and now Fur is Flying, with the Morrissey saying Mariottis a coward basically. Its obviously more than that, with the SunTimes for the first time getting into a public dispute with a rival paper. Great Stuff!

 

Point taken, but how is this organization supposed to be a first class one when there manager is an embarassment?

 

 

SOX fans dont think Ozzies an "embarrassment". Its funny, but people only started using that word after a columnist SAID the Sox were an "embarassment". Ive heard it now more in the last couple of days then before. Your only saying that because thats whats been Written. Doesnt make it the truth

[peanut33tillman]

The face of a classy organization doesn't do what Ozzie's been guilty of on numerous occassions. So what the hell is Kenny Williams talking about, are his goals to make the White Sox a classy organization or is this attendance boost simply due to being a winning team?

 

Why do you pretend you're a White Sox fan? your gigs getting old buddy.....not too mention how many "true fans" have 2 favorite teams anyways?? And about Ozzie's job being secure he just led us to our first World Series victory in 88 years and has this ballclub rolling again this year, Ozzie is goin NOWHERE nor should he