Poppy's 2nd Half Predictions....

[Rowand44]

Liriano is better than Santana.

 

They are both friggin amazing, but Liriano is spectacular...he is a friggin freak of nature. Ridiculous stuff, some of the best I have ever seen. If he stays healthy, he is going to be amazing.

 

And he was a throw-in

 

/necessary pot-shot at Sabean

I'll bet he won't be better than Santana. Liriano is fantastic but Santana is and will be better.

[T R U]

I'll bet he won't be better than Santana. Liriano is fantastic but Santana is and will be better.

 

I dunno man, Wite is usually the smartest guy I know not named Kalapse.. I think he might have the edge on you.. However he is a Bills fan and we are Dolphins fans..

 

I dont know who to believe

[witesoxfan]

I'll bet he won't be better than Santana. Liriano is fantastic but Santana is and will be better.

 

Like I said, I think he already is better than Santana. Both are ridiculous, but Liriano's secondary pitches are better than Santana's...I think Liriano's slider is just as effective as Santana's change, and that his changeup is a little better than Santana's slider is. Liriano's composure on the mound is unbelievable for his age...most kids that are fresh out of the minors go through a little bit of a growing pains period, but I don't see that happening with Liriano. Liriano's delivery is also very good too. Santana pretty much just has a standard delivery, so you tend to see the ball come out of his hand pretty well...it's just hard to hit it. Liriano has a Dontrelle Willis like delivery where he has that big leg-kick, so it's hard to see the ball out of his hand, and thus his 97 MPH fastball looks that much faster, and that slider becomes just untouchable. Add a plus changeup to that, and I think you are looking at a stud for a very long time, again, assuming he can stay healthy.

 

What also agrees with me are the numbers...

 

Liriano - 10-1 1.83 ERA 0.97 WHIP 6.42 H/9 10.4 K/9 4.34 K/BB 0.51 HR/9 .201 BAA in 88.1 IP

Santana - 9-5 2.95 ERA 1.00 WHIP 7.35 H/9 9.48 K/9 5.75 K/BB 0.96 HR/9 .221 BAA in 131 IP

 

Santana has better control than Liriano does, and that's quite evident. However, that may actually be what's hurting him right now, seeing as how he's giving up 1 more homer every 2-3 starts or so than Liriano does(both are very good, and that sentence sounds funny to me right now, because I'm making a mountain out of a molehill). Santana also gives up more hits, again probably a factor of him always being around the plate. I'm not suggesting he start getting wilder, as that would probably just f*** him up; just that Liriano is very effectively wild. A lot of that has to do with his fastball-slider combo...he strikes more people out on pitches out of the zone than Santana does, with people chasing fastballs outside and sliders down and in, whereas Santana's fastball-change combo relies on people guessing wrong.

 

However, I do not think I am going to convince you, as I recall earlier arguments we've had. I say we just agree to disagree and look back in a couple years to see who's right.

 

 

 

BTW, TRU...JUST BECAUSE IM A BILLS FAN DOESNT MEAN YOU HAVE TO HATE ME

[hammerhead johnson]

/necessary pot-shot at Sabean

 

Yes, keep piling on. As if the dude doesn't wake up every morning all depressed and what not.

 

Liriano and Santana are both HOF caliber, and could arguably qualify as a top 5 duo since 1950.

 

Koufax/Drysdale

Seaver/Ryan

Johnson/Schilling

Maddux/Glavine

Santana/Liriano

 

Think about this: If you had to choose between Maddux/Glavine in their peak years and Liriano/Santana, what would your selection be? Barring injuries, this duo is gonna bring the Twins a few championship trophies. They would straight up mow people down in the playoffs.

[SoxAce]

Liriano is better than Santana.

 

Wite... your smarter than this.

[hammerhead johnson]

Wite... your smarter than this.

 

I think he watches a s***load of Minnesota games, though.

 

I have gone out of my way to catch a few Liriano starts, and the guy is unreal.

 

I said that Zambrano was the best young pitcher (25 or younger) in the game a few weeks back, and I usually can't stand it when people's opinions change dramatically in a very short period of time, but it looks like I am one of those people. Liriano is the best young pitcher in the game, hands down.

[SoxAce]

I think he watches a s***load of Minnesota games, though.

 

I have gone out of my way to catch a few Liriano starts, and the guy is unreal.

 

I said that Zambrano was the best young pitcher (25 or younger) in the game a few weeks back, and I usually can't stand it when people's opinions change dramatically in a very short period of time, but it looks like I am one of those people. Liriano is the best young pitcher in the game, hands down.

 

He is a talent, with enormous upside, but I don't like to punch guys ticket to the hall of fame when this kid hasn't even pitched a whole season. Saying he's better than a provin Santana is just ridiculous. His only lost was against a team who faced him before so they knew and expected what he was gonna throw to them or more prepared hitting wise. We'll see if he can do this next season as well cause it's always alot harder the second/third time around. I still think he and King Felix (who has had a poor season with alot of hype on him as well) will be at the top of the best in the AL for years to come. Santana and Big Z have done it continuously though which I would like to see this kid do and staying healthy will be another key cause noone can predict an injury. He'll be a serious stud, but I'm just saying don't say he's better than Santana right now putting up Papelbon(or even Willis, Felix, etc.. as rookies) type numbers as a starter. We'll wait when the league sees him more than one time he'll have his struggles and dominance. Don't get on his nuts too much HJ.

[hammerhead johnson]

Don't get on his nuts too much HJ.

 

I'm trying not to, but it's awfully hard.

[witesoxfan]

Yes, keep piling on. As if the dude doesn't wake up every morning all depressed and what not.

 

Liriano and Santana are both HOF caliber, and could arguably qualify as a top 5 duo since 1950.

 

Koufax/Drysdale

Seaver/Ryan

Johnson/Schilling

Maddux/Glavine

Santana/Liriano

 

Think about this: If you had to choose between Maddux/Glavine in their peak years and Liriano/Santana, what would your selection be? Barring injuries, this duo is gonna bring the Twins a few championship trophies. They would straight up mow people down in the playoffs.

 

Santana/Liriano is going to destroy the league for years upon years. However, it's hard to say who I'd choose between Maddux/Glavine and Liriano/Santana. Maddux was just friggin unbelievable for a couple years there(ERA+ of 273 in 94, and an ERA+ of 259 in 95 are some of the best you will ever see...the only comparison I can find is Petey in 99-00...245 in 99, and a ridiculous 285 in 2000...in the year of the career year, Pedro Martinez puts up an ERA of 1.74...that is mind-boggling). However, where Maddux was dominant, Glavine never really was out of this world. He was very good, I will not deny that, but I'm not sure he was at the level that either Santana or Liriano is at.

 

I think I'll take Liriano/Santana...you can build not only a pitching staff, but an entire team around either one of those two, but both together? Not discrediting Maddux/Glavine...that's just how good these two are. I didn't have the pleasure of watching Glavine nor Maddux during their primes...being a little guy out chasing bugs and playing baseball myself and all...but from what I have heard, Maddux always had pretty good stuff, but Glavine was always more of a finesse pitcher. Liriano and Santana both have electric, lights out stuff, and they're both young as hell too(Santana turned 27 in March, and Liriano turns 24 in October)...they could be scary as hell in Minnesota for a long time.

 

Wite... your smarter than this.

 

If by stating the truth, I am dumb, than so be it.

 

I think he watches a s***load of Minnesota games, though.

 

I have gone out of my way to catch a few Liriano starts, and the guy is unreal.

 

I said that Zambrano was the best young pitcher (25 or younger) in the game a few weeks back, and I usually can't stand it when people's opinions change dramatically in a very short period of time, but it looks like I am one of those people. Liriano is the best young pitcher in the game, hands down.

 

Best young pitcher? I think he is the best pitcher in the game. I'm not sure there is anyone I would rather take, without even thinking about age or contract here, over Liriano. He is unbelievable.

[T R U]

BTW, TRU...JUST BECAUSE IM A BILLS FAN DOESNT MEAN YOU HAVE TO HATE ME

 

Come on now, you know youre my brotha from anotha motha

[witesoxfan]

Come on now, you know youre my brotha from anotha motha

 

Um, yessir...?

[SoxFan76]

I don't know, call me crazy, but I'm a believer in proving yourself. To me, Santana is the better pitcher because he gets it done year after year. I'm not knocking Liriano in any way, but who knows what could happen a year down the road? Some freak injury, the league figures something out, who knows. So RIGHT NOW I will still consider Santana the better pitcher. And I will glady change my stance a year down the road when Liriano is still mowing guys down.

 

Does that make sense?

[RibbieRubarb]

Yes, keep piling on. As if the dude doesn't wake up every morning all depressed and what not.

 

Liriano and Santana are both HOF caliber, and could arguably qualify as a top 5 duo since 1950.

 

Koufax/Drysdale

Seaver/Ryan

Johnson/Schilling

Maddux/Glavine

Santana/Liriano

 

I would NEVER place Santana/Liriano next to any of those names. No way.

Johann has proven himself, but Liriano has only ptiched half a year!!!

No way he deserves comparison to those names or mention of HOF yet. He can't hold their jock, yet.

 

I remember when Felix Hernandez debuted last year. So much hype, so many dominating games. He was a Cy young pick by many experts this season. A can't miss. The arm, the power, the control!

 

He is 8-8 with a 4.95 era.

 

It is SOOO easy to fall in love with a great young arm and predict his future. But I think we sould keep things in perspective.

Edited July 13, 2006 by RibbieRubarb

[SoxFan76]

I would NEVER place Santan/Liriano next to any of those names. No way.

Johann has proven himself, but Liriano has only ptiched half a year!!!

No way he deserves comparison to those names or mention of HOF yet. He can't hold their jock, yet.

 

I remember when Felix Hernandez debuted last year. So much hype, so many dominating games. He was a Cy young pick by many experts this season. A can't miss. The arm, the power, the control!

 

He is 8-8 with a 4.95 era.

 

It is SOOO eay to fall in love with a great young arm and predict his future. But I think we sould keep things in perspective.

 

Great example. I actually forgot about "King Felix". Not to say he won't get back to form and start dominating again, but people are quick to wet their pants over these young, can't-miss prospects.

[Capn12]

Great example. I actually forgot about "King Felix". Not to say he won't get back to form and start dominating again, but people are quick to wet their pants over these young, can't-miss prospects.

 

Completely agree. Don't get me wrong, Liriano, like Felix, has AMAZING stuff and has the....(worst word in sports incoming!!) POTENTIAL to be up there with the best pitchers in the game.

 

Lets not annoit them a spot beside Walter Johnson in Cooperstown yet, though.

[KeithFranklin]

I swear why does MLB even require Liriano to pitch anymore. If a team is unlucky enough to face him it should be an automatic loss.

[RibbieRubarb]

I swear why does MLB even require Liriano to pitch anymore. If a team is unlucky enough to face him it should be an automatic loss.

 

Because he can lose.

And he will.

[SoxFan76]

Because he can lose.

And he will.

 

It's the beauty of the game. Where else can you fail 7 out of 10 times and be considered a success.

 

Or how about being the pitcher with the most wins--and the most losses. (all-time)

Edited July 13, 2006 by SoxFan76

[witesoxfan]

I don't know, call me crazy, but I'm a believer in proving yourself. To me, Santana is the better pitcher because he gets it done year after year. I'm not knocking Liriano in any way, but who knows what could happen a year down the road? Some freak injury, the league figures something out, who knows. So RIGHT NOW I will still consider Santana the better pitcher. And I will glady change my stance a year down the road when Liriano is still mowing guys down.

 

Does that make sense?

 

If a guy doesn't prove himself, he shouldn't be talked about. Tyler Lumsden has a pretty good arm down in the Sox minor league system, but I'm not ready to proclaim him as the next Steve Carlton, largely because he has not proven himself.

 

The reason I am saying that Liriano is better is because he has proven himself to me. I have seen him pitch quite often, and the guy is truly, flat out, amazing. I have seen Santana pitch quite often too, but Liriano just looks better to me. Better stuff, not quite the control of Santana, but he is full of confidence, and he has the composure of a veteran pitcher. I've never seen a player period come out of the minors and be more MLB ready than Liriano is. He is a freak.

 

 

So yes, it makes sense

[RibbieRubarb]

If a guy doesn't prove himself, he shouldn't be talked about. Tyler Lumsden has a pretty good arm down in the Sox minor league system, but I'm not ready to proclaim him as the next Steve Carlton, largely because he has not proven himself.

 

The reason I am saying that Liriano is better is because he has proven himself to me. I have seen him pitch quite often, and the guy is truly, flat out, amazing. I have seen Santana pitch quite often too, but Liriano just looks better to me. Better stuff, not quite the control of Santana, but he is full of confidence, and he has the composure of a veteran pitcher. I've never seen a player period come out of the minors and be more MLB ready than Liriano is. He is a freak.

So yes, it makes sense

 

No one ever said he couldn't be talked about. I don't think he should be talked about with the same reverence as the other HOF pitchers that have been tossed out.

What exactly has he proven?

He has never pitched a full season. He has never pitched in a playoff game. He has never pitched in a World Series game.

 

And for someone to say that Liriano/Santana is better than Koufax/Drysdale, Seaver/Ryan, or even Johnson/Schilling in their prime is too extreme and outlandish for my sports sensibilities.

[Controlled Chaos]

If a guy doesn't prove himself, he shouldn't be talked about. Tyler Lumsden has a pretty good arm down in the Sox minor league system, but I'm not ready to proclaim him as the next Steve Carlton, largely because he has not proven himself.

 

The reason I am saying that Liriano is better is because he has proven himself to me. I have seen him pitch quite often, and the guy is truly, flat out, amazing. I have seen Santana pitch quite often too, but Liriano just looks better to me. Better stuff, not quite the control of Santana, but he is full of confidence, and he has the composure of a veteran pitcher. I've never seen a player period come out of the minors and be more MLB ready than Liriano is. He is a freak.

So yes, it makes sense

Lets see his confidence after the Sox get through with him. You goin down biatch!!!!!!

[SoxFan76]

If a guy doesn't prove himself, he shouldn't be talked about. Tyler Lumsden has a pretty good arm down in the Sox minor league system, but I'm not ready to proclaim him as the next Steve Carlton, largely because he has not proven himself.

 

The reason I am saying that Liriano is better is because he has proven himself to me. I have seen him pitch quite often, and the guy is truly, flat out, amazing. I have seen Santana pitch quite often too, but Liriano just looks better to me. Better stuff, not quite the control of Santana, but he is full of confidence, and he has the composure of a veteran pitcher. I've never seen a player period come out of the minors and be more MLB ready than Liriano is. He is a freak.

So yes, it makes sense

 

I don't think that anyone would doubt that Liriano has some nasty stuff and knows how to pitch. But he's pitched not even half a season. Santana has been pitching for much longer than that, and at an extremely high level as well. Give it another year or 2 before comparing Santana/Liriano with some of the greatest of all time.

[hammerhead johnson]

And for someone to say that Liriano/Santana is better than Koufax/Drysdale, Seaver/Ryan, or even Johnson/Schilling in their prime is too extreme and outlandish for my sports sensibilities.

 

No way, dude!

 

I just said that they are arguably a Top 5 duo since 1950, but they would round out that list. Koufax/Drysdale is probably the best duo in the 140+ year history of the game. Plank/Ruffing is the only duo that would come close IMO.

 

Basically, Santana and Liriano are the two best SPs in the game right now, and they are both in the same rotation. When is the last time something like that happened? Forget about the AL triple crown (ERA/WHIP/BAA). These guys are gonna go heads up for the MLB triple crown, and Santana will end up leading the league in Ks.

 

Barring injuries, they'll could go down as the best duo since Koufax/Drysdale.

 

It's not that outlandish. I'm sure that people were saying the same thing about Roger Clemens in 1986. Then again, Doc Gooden was also supposed to become an all-time great, but cocaine is one hell of a drug. Or was he smoking crack? Ahh, same difference.

[RibbieRubarb]

No way, dude!

 

I just said that they are arguably a Top 5 duo since 1950, but they would round out that list. Koufax/Drysdale is probably the best duo in the 140+ year history of the game. Plank/Ruffing is the only duo that would come close IMO.

 

Basically, Santana and Liriano are the two best SPs in the game right now, and they are both in the same rotation. When is the last time something like that happened? Forget about the AL triple crown (ERA/WHIP/BAA). These guys are gonna go heads up for the MLB triple crown, and Santana will end up leading the league in Ks.

 

Barring injuries, they'll could go down as the best duo since Koufax/Drysdale.

 

It's not that outlandish. I'm sure that people were saying the same thing about Roger Clemens in 1986. Then again, Doc Gooden was also supposed to become an all-time great, but cocaine is one hell of a drug. Or was he smoking crack? Ahh, same difference.

 

A top five duo since 1950? Based on a half a season? Sorry. no.

[hammerhead johnson]

A top five duo since 1950? Based on a half a season? Sorry. no.

 

That's cool. What do you think about this statement, though:

 

Basically, Santana and Liriano are the two best SPs in the game right now, and they are both in the same rotation. When is the last time something like that happened?

 

This is pretty much the basis of my argument.

 

Once in a great while, guys can just step in and establish themselves as all-time greats right off the bat. Barry Sanders, Jerry Rice, Hakeem Olajuwon, Lebron James, Magic Johnson, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, etc. Just a few names that come to mind.