Homosexuality, Choice, and Hormones.

[Rex Kickass]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,20...24408_1,00.html

 

SCIENTISTS are conducting experiments to change the sexuality of “gay” sheep in a programme that critics fear could pave the way for breeding out homosexuality in humans.

 

The technique being developed by American researchers adjusts the hormonal balance in the brains of homosexual rams so that they are more inclined to mate with ewes.

 

A lot of controversy regarding this. And I don't know that I understand why. I understand the fear of changing things in someone, as a way to "eradicate" the gays. But that won't ever really happen, I don't think. What will happen is pretty good proof that homosexuality isn't a choice. That sexuality isn't anymore of a learned behavior than heterosexuality. And I think that's a great thing to have good proof on.

 

Because a lot of questions can then get settled. Whether or not its ok to discriminate against legal rights for gay people that straight people get. The answer, at least in our country, quickly becomes no. Which is excellent.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

If homosexuality is a choice, can I call into work queer?

[Rex Kickass]

I try every day. They still make me come in.

[sox4lifeinPA]

why have over 50% of lesbians been shown to have some sort of sexual abuse in their lives?

 

Why are there people who combat homosexuality and then overcome it and realize they're not gay?

 

on the other hand... proving that homosexuality is a genetic thing isn't a positive either.

 

obesity, cancer, color blindness, homosexuality... in darwins opinion those are all weaker traits.

 

And besides, do we know what the rise in homosexuality is attributed to? coke products? saturated fats? chronic lack of sleep?

 

 

This argument is a inane one because there are few people actually willing to ask hard questions. Is homosexuality even a good thing?

 

Blue eyes and blond hair is not the same thing as being heterosexual or homosexual. pure and simple. From a secular darwinian point of view, if you don't breed, you're going out of style. Passing on your genes is what every animal on earth is trying to do....except pandas...they're lazy.

[Rex Kickass]

why have over 50% of lesbians been shown to have some sort of sexual abuse in their lives?

 

Why are there people who combat homosexuality and then overcome it and realize they're not gay?

 

on the other hand... proving that homosexuality is a genetic thing isn't a positive either.

 

obesity, cancer, color blindness, homosexuality... in darwins opinion those are all weaker traits.

 

I'm going to disagree with you here. I don't disagree that homosexuality is a weaker trait in evolution. Gay people are genetic dead ends of a sort - by definition. They don't generally reproduce. I think there are many reasons why people "combat" homosexuality. Fabulousness aside, its not the easiest thing in the world to deal with - and there's a lot of self-shame and loathing to be overcome because of the way that our society views homosexuality. I'd argue many "ex-gays" are reacting to societal pressures of their community rather than anything else. I also think that there are plenty of reasons why someone might be gay. Traumatic experiences dealing with molestation may be one of them, but there also appear to be biological reasons why someone may be homosexual instead of heterosexual. That's a fundamentally important point. Because if that's true, then it makes it much harder for people in our country to deny equal rights to equal people, purely based on biology.

 

And besides, do we know what the rise in homosexuality is attributed to? coke products? saturated fats? chronic lack of sleep?

This argument is a inane one because there are few people actually willing to ask hard questions. Is homosexuality even a good thing?

 

Frankly, I don't see why that's even important. It wouldn't change that there is a biological difference that can account for sexual identity and that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on their biology. For the record, I'd like to state that homosexuality is neither a good or bad thing.

 

 

Blue eyes and blond hair is not the same thing as being heterosexual or homosexual. pure and simple. From a secular darwinian point of view, if you don't breed, you're going out of style. Passing on your genes is what every animal on earth is trying to do....except pandas...they're lazy.

Going out of style? Breeding is so 2002.

[NorthSideSox72]

Blue eyes and blond hair is not the same thing as being heterosexual or homosexual.

1. I'd suggest it is a lot like blond hair and blue eyes, actually. In both cases, that maybe a natural blond, or a societally pressured blond. Who knows?

 

2. Why does anyone give a crap what other people do with their sex lives anyway? Its really not my business. And it sure as heck isn't the government's either.

[sox4lifeinPA]

A fat person doesn't want to hear that he's genetically inferior to a skinny person, just like I don't want to hear that Michael Jordan is genetically superior to me athletically.

 

This isn't about value of a person. I'm not saying one person has more value than another. Michael Jordan and I have equal worth from a human standpoint.

 

Superiority in a secular world is simply that your genes will be passed on more likely than the other guy over a period of years, decades, centuries.

 

People try to fix genetic weaknesses all of the time. Growth hormones for short people, bald people, fat people, skinny people, sick people.

 

and there's a lot of self-shame and loathing to be overcome because of the way that our society views homosexuality

 

really? because I see Christianity made fun of more often than homosexual people these days. sure if you live in a bumblecrotch, AL, you're probably going to be looked at differently. However, there are plenty of places where it is perfectly acceptable to be homosexual, but often those people suffer from depression and other mental issues despite social acceptance.

 

 

Why does anyone give a crap what other people do with their sex lives anyway? Its really not my business. And it sure as heck isn't the government's either.

 

I don't care what someone else does behind their own doors between consenting adults. Actually I do, but I'm not going to tell people what they should and shouldn't do and certainly we don't need the government to help in that process.

 

I'd suggest it is a lot like blond hair and blue eyes, actually. In both cases, that maybe a natural blond, or a societally pressured blond. Who knows?

 

so it's genetics, learned behavior, social pressure, choice and/or some combination of any and all of those that makes a person homosexual?

 

I would agree.

 

All of this being said, again I post my opinion, any two people should be able to enter into a civil union and receive the same rights as a married couple. But churches should not marry homosexuals.

[kevin57]

From a secular darwinian point of view, if you don't breed, you're going out of style. Passing on your genes is what every animal on earth is trying to do.

 

Your post makes it look like you have never (knowingly) had a gay relative or friend. Your attitudes would be quite different if you did.

 

As to this quote, there is an anthropological theory that homosexual tendencies are placed in a small, but significant, portion of the population precisely to control overpopulation.

[RockRaines]

If homosexuality is a choice, can I call into work queer?

You can, but how does being gay make you not able to work?

Pretty bad comparison IMO. You can however become gay if you feel socially awkward and need to find a place to fit in that is welcoming and open to you.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Your post makes it look like you have never (knowingly) had a gay relative or friend. Your attitudes would be quite different if you did.

 

As to this quote, there is an anthropological theory that homosexual tendencies are placed in a small, but significant, portion of the population precisely to control overpopulation.

 

I know fat people, and I consider it a genetic disadvantage to be that way. So while I understand what you're saying, it's an incorrect line of logic.

 

That's an interesting theory, but any genetic flaw/weakness would control overpopulation. The threory then implies homosexuality as a negative for the trait carrier.

[RockRaines]

Your post makes it look like you have never (knowingly) had a gay relative or friend. Your attitudes would be quite different if you did.

Why? Just because you know or love someone who is gay, doesn't mean that your viewpoints have to change on homosexuality in general.

[sox4lifeinPA]

You can, but how does being gay make you not able to work?

Pretty bad comparison IMO. You can however become gay if you feel socially awkward and need to find a place to fit in that is welcoming and open to you.

 

 

much like high school kids turn to partying or church youth groups or dressing goth or punk.

 

 

and the term is homosexual. Gay means happy.

[kevin57]

Just respond to the point. Knowing someone makes facile, sweeping commentaries what they are...ignorant.

 

Not that long ago, for instance, all sorts of judgments, commentaries, and questions were raised about anyone who got divorced (Can I have an "Amen" from anyone in the crowd over 50?). Funny thing, though, when their relatives, neighbors and friends started getting divorced, most of those judgments stopped.

[Jenksismyhero]

Your post makes it look like you have never (knowingly) had a gay relative or friend. Your attitudes would be quite different if you did.

 

How would that change anything? If you had an alcoholic mother/father you could still love them and continue your relationship with them but still not like the fact that they're alcoholic (disclaimer: not equating the two as equal in any way!)

 

For the record I have a gay friend or two and hung out with a fair amount of them in college. I live 4 blocks north of the biggest gay community in the midwest (Wrigley!). I've always been open that I don't think homosexuality is morally wrong. I think it's unnatural. I don't care when society (Hollywood) portrays homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle, but I draw the line when they try to say it's natural.

 

I think once you take away the biological anomalies (children born with both sexual organs and the doc/parents choose the wrong one to snip), those that were scarred for life as a child because of sexual abuse, etc, the majority of homosexuals are gay because of our culture and its portrayal of sexuality. People keep saying that the rise in homosexuality is based on the openness and acceptance of gays in our society. I think it's growing because more and more people see it as an available lifestyle, even though they may just be confused, lonely and/or depressed about their luck with the opposite sex (or their own sexuality in general). How many 10-13 year olds are going to watch something on MTV and think that's the answer to their confusion? People use Greek and Roman views on homosexuality as a way to show that homosexuality has always been around. If you look though, it was all socially contrived. It was about power and dominance. If you were the taker you were equal to a slave. If you were the giver you were 'normal.'

 

All that said, I think it's ridiculous when the government tries to interfere. The day that we start making laws based on difficult moral questions is the day that we've lost the founding principles of the country. Everyone should be given the same rights. I laugh when people try to say that adoption is a big concern. True, same-sex couples probably don't offer the same benefits to a child than 'natural' parents would. But having two loving people is probably better than none, than one parent, than abusive parents, than irresponsible parents, etc etc.

[southsider2k5]

I'll say this early on... Keep it civil and remember the rules please...

[sox4lifeinPA]

Just respond to the point. Knowing someone makes facile, sweeping commentaries what they are...ignorant.

 

Not that long ago, for instance, all sorts of judgments, commentaries, and questions were raised about anyone who got divorced (Can I have an "Amen" from anyone in the crowd over 50?). Funny thing, though, when their relatives, neighbors and friends started getting divorced, most of those judgments stopped.

 

so the only way someone can have an opinion on a subject is having gone through it themselves or knowing someone that has.

 

right.

 

So I should go out and become a drug addict just so I know to tell my kids NOT to do drugs so they don't become drug addicts.

 

I'm not judging anyone's behavior. I'm fighting the automatic defense shield that everyone puts up when someone questions whether homosexuality is a bad thing or how homosexuality develops in people.

 

I'll say this early on... Keep it civil and remember the rules please...

 

whatever jackass

[RockRaines]

much like high school kids turn to partying or church youth groups or dressing goth or punk.

and the term is homosexual. Gay means happy.

Homosexual's like the term "gay" so I can use it in that context.

 

If being homesexual wasnt so glorified in the media today, would there still be the same number of people choosing that path in life? Consequently did they decide to be a homosexual because its somewhat popular, or did it just make it easier to "come out."

 

With my psych degree and my studies I will almost always be on the nurture side of this debate.

[Rex Kickass]

I'm pretty sure that there's a difference between being accepted and becoming gay because of what you see on TV. I saw lots of beer commercials when I was a kid. Not only do I not drink that much beer, but I don't drool over the Swedish bikini team.

 

What I love here has nothing to do with the perceived morality or immorality of homosexuality. What this has to do with is equal rights.

 

PA, people may not like to be told that their physical traits are recessive - but that doesn't change the fact if they are. Homosexuality is natural, but not necessarily normal genetically. And there's nothing wrong with being abnormal. It just is what it is.

 

Being able to find proof that someone is "born gay" or wired differently doesn't really change anything - except that homosexual people deserve the same rights and responsibilities in the United States that heterosexual people deserve. In most states, you can be fired upon suspicion of being gay. Gay people are not protected under fair housing statutes, and their presence in the military has merely been decriminalized, not legalized. If there is a physical difference between many homosexuals and heterosexuals, it becomes apparent, IMHO, that our government shouldn't be able to allow discrimination based on sexual identity. That's all.

[RockRaines]

I'm pretty sure that there's a difference between being accepted and becoming gay because of what you see on TV. I saw lots of beer commercials when I was a kid. Not only do I not drink that much beer, but I don't drool over the Swedish bikini team.

Not even close to a good comparison to what I was saying, but i'll let it go because of how spot on the rest of your post was with equal right etc.

 

I do not agree with homosexuality, but I do agree with the human's right to choose, and their right to equality in society. One's choice of mate shouldnt carry as much negative weight as certain situations do. Interracial, homosexuality, even different faiths, are looked down upon in many forms of our society.

 

Think about something this way: Two genetic faults, one physical, one is homosexuality. The person with a physical handicap is given ramps, money, special tools to aid them along their life path. Homosexuals are persecuted, hanged, murdered, among other horrible outcomes.

Edited January 2, 2007 by RockRaines

[SleepyWhiteSox]

With my psych degree and my studies I will almost always be on the nurture side of this debate.

 

Doesn't have to be either/or though...

[RockRaines]

Doesn't have to be either/or though...

Really? Either is politics and yet everyone chooses sides. I am MORE on the nurture side. Hows that for ya?

[LosMediasBlancas]

1. I'd suggest it is a lot like blond hair and blue eyes, actually. In both cases, that maybe a natural blond, or a societally pressured blond. Who knows?

 

2. Why does anyone give a crap what other people do with their sex lives anyway? Its really not my business. And it sure as heck isn't the government's either.

 

 

Why?

Don't you know that gays are responsible for the decay in our society's morals and smear the sanctity of marriage? It's not the 50% divorce rate...among heteros.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Why?

Don't you know that gays are responsible for the decay in our society's morals and smear the sanctity of marriage? It's not the 50% divorce rate...among heteros.

 

 

yawn.

 

 

that's not what anyone's talking about here.

 

 

p.s. that's the gheyist color green ever.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Really? Either is politics and yet everyone chooses sides. I am MORE on the nurture side. Hows that for ya?

 

Kewl. I guess I'll go with 70% nature - 30% nurture.

[RockRaines]

Kewl. I guess I'll go with 70% nature - 30% nurture.

70-30 is SOOOOO 2001.