5th starter article

[RockRaines]

Danks tanks, Floyd cranks

Flip-flop leaves Cooper indecisive on No. 5 starter

 

March 19, 2007

BY CHRIS DE LUCA Staff Reporter

 

PEORIA, Ariz. -- Clarity did not present itself Sunday as the battle for the fifth spot in the White Sox' rotation was played out on one stage against the San Diego Padres.

 

Left-hander John Danks, who had nudged into the lead and earned his first Cactus League start, turned in his shakiest outing of camp, allowing six runs and nine hits, including two home runs, in 3 2/3 innings.

 

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Right-hander Gavin Floyd, the pre-camp favorite who had faltered recently, battled back in his first relief appearance, allowing one run and three hits in 4 1/3 innings.

 

''So the race continues,'' pitching coach Don Cooper said.

 

Two more outings for each pitcher will decide the fifth spot in a rotation that already includes Jose Contreras, Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland and Javier Vazquez.

 

It's clear this back-and-forth battle will go down to the wire.

 

''That's what we said all along,'' Cooper said. ''Nobody is making any rush judgments -- we don't have to.''

 

Danks breezed through a 1-2-3 first inning but opened the second by yielding a booming home run to Adrian Gonzalez. Josh Bard and Khalil Greene followed with consecutive singles, and Bard later scored on a Geoff Blum sacrifice fly.

 

Working with a 7-2 lead, Danks set down the Padres in order in the third. But he stumbled early in the fourth, yielding consecutive singles again to Bard and Greene. Kevin Kouzmanoff followed with a two-run double to center before Russell Branyan belted a two-run homer. Danks entered the game having allowed no home runs in his first four outings.

 

Two outs later, Brian Giles doubled to end Danks' outing after 74 pitches.

 

''I was actually more excited for this one because I get to face the whole big-league lineup,'' Danks said of making his first start. ''It went well for two innings and not so well for two innings.

 

''Even the second inning wasn't bad. I gave up a 900-foot home run [to Gonzalez]. Other than that, a couple ground-ball singles. You can't do anything about that. I was trying to make them put it on the ground.

 

''But the fourth inning was frustrating. I went out there trying to make them put it in play, but you can't leave the ball up like I was throwing it. You let a big-league hitter take a look at a ball mid-thigh high, he's going to do something with it.''

 

Floyd replaced Danks in the fourth and walked Mike Cameron before escaping the jam by retiring Gonzalez on a grounder to short.

 

After yielding consecutive doubles to Bard and Greene to open the fifth, Floyd settled down to retire nine of the next 10 batters -- a walk to Cameron the only time the Padres reached base.

 

Floyd opened the eighth by yielding a double to Paul McAnulty before retiring the next three batters.

 

''I felt good,'' Floyd said. ''Every game I've gone out, I've felt good and my stuff has been there. I was able to make good pitches in the right situations and got people out. I was happy that I got John out of the jam and kept the team with a lead.

 

''I was just trying to narrow my focus on the mitt. That last start it was too wide.''

 

This was Floyd's first time coming in as a reliever while battling for the fifth spot, and he admitted it was strange.

 

''I tried it before when I was in Philly,'' said Floyd, who was acquired from the Phillies in the Freddy Garcia trade. ''I started a couple of games, then they put me in the bullpen, and I had never done that before in my life. It was something different.

 

''It was still baseball, you still pitch, but it's a completely different mind-set and you have to be sharp from the beginning. That didn't really work out for me. But I was happy I went out there and threw strikes and got people out and acted like it was a start.''

 

Manager Ozzie Guillen said he has seen each pitcher make progress, but he is no closer to making his decision than he was four weeks ago.

 

''Everybody knows Gavin has a good arm,'' Guillen said. ''It's all about strikes. If this kid throws the ball over the plate, he can be real effective. He's got a good breaking ball and a changeup. If this kid's around the plate, he's going to be better.

 

''[Danks] had just had one bad inning. Today, it was exactly an Arizona baseball game. You can't judge people because today the wind was blowing out and the ball was carrying a lot. But the one thing about this kid, I love him because he throws a lot of strikes. He attacks the strike zone. The runs they scored against him doesn't decide it. Today was a tough day to pitch.''

 

In less than two weeks, the Sox will have a fifth starter.

 

''It's crazy, it has come pretty quick,'' Floyd said. ''I just keep focusing on what I can do, go out there and compete. You are competing against the other team, and that's all that matters. And hopefully everything falls into place.''

 

cdeluca@suntimes.com

 

White Sox's Floyd makes big gain

Rescues rival Danks, but 5th-starter race appears headed to wire

 

By Mark Gonzales

Tribune staff reporter

 

March 18, 2007, 9:37 PM CDT

 

PEORIA, Ariz. -- Gavin Floyd calmly ate his pizza before assessing the battle for the fifth spot in the White Sox's rotation.

 

Time was on Floyd's side Sunday as he rebounded from a rough outing in his last stint to bail out fellow competitor John Danks from a jam.

 

 

Thus the latest developments in the fifth-starter's race reinforced the Sox's decision to wait until the end of spring training before selecting a winner.

 

Floyd pitched 41/3 innings of three-hit ball in helping the Sox preserve a 14-7 victory over San Diego.

 

"The race continues," pitching coach Don Cooper said.

 

The fifth spot could still go to Charlie Haeger, who will start Tuesday against Oakland and who provides versatility that could enable the Sox to opt for an extra position player when the regular season starts.

 

"The way they're pitching right now, we can't make a decision," manager Ozzie Guillen said. "That's why we have to be patient and think about what we're going to do and what's best for us."

 

Each candidate will probably have two more outings to strengthen his case. Floyd and Danks could make their last Cactus League appearances on March 28, a day before most of the Sox's players leave for Birmingham and an exhibition game. Jon Garland will stay in Tucson to pitch either in a minor-league game or against Colorado.

 

Floyd, who was anointed the favorite heading into spring training, took a major step forward. Danks nearly blew all of a six-run cushion before Floyd induced Adrian Gonzalez to ground out with the tying run on second to end the fourth inning.

 

Floyd allowed consecutive doubles to start the fifth but then retired nine of the next 10 batters and 12 of the next 14. Floyd would have retired 10 straight had backup catcher Wiki Gonzalez been able to retrieve a foul pop that fell near the Sox's dugout. Floyd eventually walked Mike Cameron with two outs in the sixth but retired the next four batters.

 

Danks was given his first exhibition start of the spring, but Floyd showed a sense of urgency in a role with which he was not comfortable.

 

"It's a completely different mind-set, and you have to be sharp from the beginning," he said. "I was happy I went out there and threw strikes and got people out and acted like it was a start."

 

Floyd allowed six runs in 32/3 innings in his last start Tuesday against Texas. "That didn't really work out for me," he said. So he merely tried to "narrow my focus on the mitt."

 

Danks, meanwhile, was frustrated by his inconsistency. He retired the side in order in the first and third innings but was tagged for four consecutive hits to start the fourth, capped by Russell Branyan's opposite-field homer.

 

Danks also surrendered a leadoff homer to Gonzalez in the second that carried over the 30-foot center-field wall.

 

Danks had allowed only two earned runs over his first nine spring innings and said he didn't feel any pressure making his first spring start.

 

"They told us the first day of camp that if you go out and have a bad one, you're not out of it," he said. "Obviously that's very comforting, but by the same token I was in a good position to pull ahead by a little bit. Gavin has great stuff and Charlie is pitching his [tail] off. They don't have a choice but to let it go to the wire. All of us really want it. I didn't help my cause."

 

Guillen wasn't overly critical because Danks threw 50 of his 74 pitches for strikes.

 

"It was exactly an Arizona baseball game," Guillen said. "You can't judge people because the wind was blowing out, and the ball was carrying a lot. But the one thing about [Danks], I love him because he throws a lot of strikes. He attacks the strike zone. The runs they scored against him doesn't decide it. It was a tough day to pitch."

 

mgonzales@tribune.com

 

Based on some 'intangibles,' Floyd should win Sox's fifth spot

 

March 18, 2007

By Nathaniel Whalen Staff writer

 

TUCSON, Ariz. -- The fifth starter in the White Sox rotation for 2007 will probably be decided by which of the candidates pitches best on the field.

 

Of course, there are other factors to be considered -- demeanor, experience and aggressiveness, for example.

 

Then again, there are plenty of other irrelevant categories that have nothing to do with pitching -- or baseball, really.

 

Those are the ones the Daily Southtown chose to grill the three top candidates for the No. 5 job -- Gavin Floyd, Charlie Haeger and John Danks -- about.

 

They were asked which of the three was most applicable in 18 different categories. Though they are all new teammates, there were five unanimous choices.

 

Here are the 13 categories up for grabs (with the players' responses):

 

The best card player

 

Floyd: "Danks, I guess."

 

Haeger: "I would say Gavin, because Gavin's always playing."

 

Danks: "Oh, I smoke them all the time. Without a doubt. Name the game. I've got them all."

 

Winner: The confident Danks.

 

The best fighter

 

Floyd: "I might pick myself on that one. I'm not scrappy, but I think I could be a pretty good fighter."

 

Haeger: "Gavin's out. Either me or Danks. It depends, I haven't seen Danks get fired up yet, but I know when I get (ticked off) I get pretty fired up."

 

Danks: "Gavin has the reach. Charlie played football, though. Toss up. I think we're all pretty scrappy. No winner. I think we'd all get our butts kicked."

 

Winner: Danks again, this time for honesty.

 

The best --biggest? -- eater

 

Floyd: "I think I could eat pretty good. Fast and quantity. I've been known to put seven tacos down in probably five minutes."

 

Haeger: "Danks. I've seen him put some food away. I'm going to have go with Danks on that one. Anything in here, he crushes."

 

Danks: "I'll go with Charlie. He was the most excited about the lunch today."

 

Winner: Floyd. You try eating seven tacos in five minutes.

 

The best at understanding what manager Ozzie Guillen is saying

 

Floyd: "None of us."

 

Haeger: "I'd probably say me, because I've had a chance to see him for a couple of years. But he's difficult when he gets upset and going fast, he's tough to understand."

 

Danks: "I think Charlie has had the most time with him, so I'll go with Charlie."

 

Winner: The experienced Haeger.

 

The best athlete

 

Floyd: "I don't like these questions."

 

Haeger: "Oh, me, without a question. C'mon. That's a no-brainer. I hope they said me, too. They should have. I played football, college golf (at the University of Michigan)."

 

Danks: "Toss up. We've all played other sports. (pause) I think I could take them."

 

Winner: Haeger. Just watch him field his position.

 

The best talker

 

Floyd: "Danks. He talks a little bit."

 

Haeger: "Me, again. Danks talks a little bit, but Gavin never says anything."

 

Danks: "Charlie. Gavin and I are pretty quiet guys."

 

Winner: Danks gave the best answers for this quiz.

 

The 'American Idol' winner

 

Floyd: "Probably Haeger. He has a real deep voice."

 

Haeger: "Me, without a question. Quality singer. I can do country music -- that's pretty much it. A one-genre guy."

 

Danks: "I think Gavin would be kind of a sleeper on that one. I'll go with Gavin. Gavin would pull some classical or oldies -- maybe '50s music."

 

Winner: Floyd's rocking with the oldies.

 

The best hitter

 

Floyd: "I could see Haeger being a good hitter."

 

Haeger: "I'm going to have to go with Danks. Watching him take BP this year, he was pretty good."

 

Danks: "I've seen Charlie, but I haven't seen Gavin. Charlie can hit them pretty good."

 

Winner: Haeger can apparently mash.

 

The 'Jeopardy' winner

 

Floyd: "Haeger said he got a 1300 on his SAT, so probably him."

 

Haeger: "Gavin. Without question. Hands down. He's pretty intelligent guy."

 

Danks: "Oh, Gavin. No brainer. Gavin is the guy doing the crosswords every morning, Gavin knows his stuff."

 

Winner: The crossword man.

 

The first kicked off 'Survivor'

 

Floyd: "Probably me, because I don't know anything about the show."

 

Haeger: "I'm probably going to go with myself. I'd probably do something to (tick) everyone on the show off."

 

Danks: "You got to think about this one. I like to camp, so I think I'd do all right. I'll go Gavin. No reason."

 

Winner: Ignorance is not bliss, so Floyd's gone first.

 

The best NCAA Tournament bracket prognosticator

 

Floyd: "I think Haeger probably has a good basketball sense. I think he follows it."

 

Haeger: "Danks, without question. He's a huge college basketball fan. That's all he does. He goes home and watches six hours a day."

 

Danks: "Me. I watch basketball like it's my job. Texas for sure is my team. I have Kansas winning it, though. (Texas) is getting knocked out in the Sweet Sixteen by (University of North) Carolina."

 

Winner: Danks is just doing his job.

 

The best dresser

 

Floyd: "I probably would have to take that category. I just wear things the average person wouldn't normally wear. I have somewhat of a style, sense of a style. Not saying they don't, but I'm kind of somewhat up with the fashion world."

 

Haeger: "Myself. You can look at Danks' locker today and see what he's wearing or you can look at mine. My girlfriend helps me out with that a little bit."

 

Danks: "Gavin without a doubt. Gavin wears some of the weirdest stuff I've ever seen."

 

Winner: Anyone who admits to being up with fashion wins, Mr. Floyd.

 

The best video game player

 

Floyd: "I play a lot. I get bored in the apartment, so, that's pretty much what I do. Safe to say two hours a day is probably (right)."

 

Haeger: "Me, without a question. That's all I did this offseason -- work out and play Xbox. I'm a pretty good Madden player."

 

Danks: "Gavin is pretty good. Charlie talks a lot, thinks he's good at Madden, but I don't think he's very good. Gavin could take him without a doubt."

 

Winner: Danks' confidence makes Floyd the man.

 

Thanks to his video game knowledge, cooking and crossword skills, Floyd (7) edges Danks (6) and Haeger (5) for the fifth starter's job -- according to his two opponents and an entirely irrelevant quiz, that is.

[NorthSideSox72]

That third article is awesome. Where is that from?

[ScottyDo]

Personally, I think Danks clearly has the better stuff. I just hope that if he makes the ballclub to start the year, he doesn't have too short a leash. Historically, he struggles early at each level but turns it on by the end. From the first article, it appears Danks is a quick learner because he seemed to know exactly why he was getting burned and didn't give the usual interview tripe that means nothing. Floyd's an unknown quantity, but part of me wants him to start the year in the 5th spot because I think whoever starts there will get yanked before the end.

[bmags]

danks honesty probably won't last that long so these quote are pretty awesome. He seems real cool. That third article makes me root for all of 'em though.

[tealeafreaderii]

I'd like to see Haeger make it.

[Balta1701]

I'd like to see Haeger make it.

I think Charlie has the inside track to wind up as the long man in the bullpen, given Aardsma's struggles.

[TitoMB345]

This is going to be a LOOOOOOOONG year. Can you say 2004?

[Y2HH]

This is going to be a LOOOOOOOONG year. Can you say 2004?

 

2004.

[Hideaway Lights]

yeah I am pretty glad we have a bunch of AAAA players vying for the 5th starter spot

[The Ginger Kid]

old school solution: Four man rotation

 

throw Haeger out there on occasion to keep a five day rest for the four starters.

[Balta1701]

old school solution: Four man rotation

 

throw Haeger out there on occasion to keep a five day rest for the four starters.

After seeing our guys in 2004, I think that's a pretty poor idea. The Sox went with Mr. "Off day" as the 5th starter for about 2 months, threw guys like Buehrle and Loaiza out there every 5th day with no extra time, and I thought by June and July you could really tell they were getting worn out by the innings.

 

I think we're better off putting out a guy to give up 7 runs in 6 innings and saving the pitching staff the innings than we are using up the offdays like that.

[bmags]

i'm sorry that floyd having a great day and danks having two poor innings but knowing what he did wrong doesn't shock me. I see nothing here that is discouraging.

[The Ginger Kid]

I think we're better off putting out a guy to give up 7 runs in 6 innings and saving the pitching staff the innings than we are using up the offdays like that.

 

It's true that we shouldn't expect too much from the 5th starter. That said, it would be fun to watch Charlie on the mound. It pains me to say it because I'm rooting for him to make the team, but Danks could benefit from a move to AAA.

 

This rotation has me seriously on edge going into the season. And it's not helping that Jenks is getting shelled in B games. Offensively I think we're a plus team. But we all know where one dimension gets us.

 

Have you noticed what the tigers rotation is doing this spring?

[Soxbadger]

Are people honestly comparing Danks/Floyd to our 5th starters of old including guys like Grilli, Schoenweiess, Dan Wright, and Felix Diaz?

 

Danks and Floyd are light years more talented than these guys.

[Hideaway Lights]

Are people honestly comparing Danks/Floyd to our 5th starters of old including guys like Grilli, Schoenweiess, Dan Wright, and Felix Diaz?

 

Danks and Floyd are light years more talented than these guys.

 

Floyd won't win as many games as Schoenweiss did in the major leagues, that's for sure

 

talent doesn't mean anything when you can't keep your ERA in the same stratosphere as other pitchers

 

Danks may be talented and might be great in a couple years but right now he is the textbook definition of a AAAA player

[Soxbadger]

You dont think that Floyd will win 47 games in his career?

 

Hes already got 7. Which is more than Schoenweiss had until age 26.

 

I really think you have no clue about Floyd.

[GoodAsGould]

Floyd won't win as many games as Schoenweiss did in the major leagues, that's for sure

 

talent doesn't mean anything when you can't keep your ERA in the same stratosphere as other pitchers

 

Danks may be talented and might be great in a couple years but right now he is the textbook definition of a AAAA player

 

a AAAA pitcher is a guy that can have success in AAA but doesnt have what it takes to ever have success in the majors, I think the guy that we have that fits that definition the most is Heath Phillips. So how in the world does Danks fall in that category.

 

And its way 2 early to say what Floyd will do in his career.

[witesoxfan]

Floyd won't win as many games as Schoenweiss did in the major leagues, that's for sure

 

talent doesn't mean anything when you can't keep your ERA in the same stratosphere as other pitchers

 

Danks may be talented and might be great in a couple years but right now he is the textbook definition of a AAAA player

 

Dude you sound clueless all around. You're basing your opinion on Floyd based off of statistics in 108 innings of work in the majors, and you call Danks a AAAAer player when every publication considers him a top 5 prospect within the White Sox system and he's thrown 70 innings at the AAA level. A AAAA player is a non-prospect, something Danks is. Danks would be a AAA player right now that may have to pitch in the majors...so no, he's not a textbook definition of a AAAA player. That's Jeff Bajenaru or Ernie Young or Jeff Farnsworth.

[Hideaway Lights]

Dude you sound clueless all around. You're basing your opinion on Floyd based off of statistics in 108 innings of work in the majors, and you call Danks a AAAAer player when every publication considers him a top 5 prospect within the White Sox system and he's thrown 70 innings at the AAA level. A AAAA player is a non-prospect, something Danks is. Danks would be a AAA player right now that may have to pitch in the majors...so no, he's not a textbook definition of a AAAA player. That's Jeff Bajenaru or Ernie Young or Jeff Farnsworth.

 

 

there are two definitions of a AAAA player

 

a player that is too good to pitch in AAA but not good enough yet to pitch in the majors

 

or

 

a player that is and will probably never be successful in the major leagues and is continually going back to the minors

 

how does that first definition not apply to danks at this point, and how does the latter not apply to floyd?

 

so 108 innings in the major leagues is suddenly not enough to judge a player? Fine. Is 151 enough? I wonder why so many people on this website have formed extremely solid opinions of brandon mccarthy one way or the other...

 

I also believe that our lack of a solid fifth starter is going to kill us this season, not because of a fifth starter, because if any one of our top four go down we are due for a 5-15 stretch with some extremely long bullpen outings.

 

I'm just amazed that a guy who fails to get his ERA very much below 7.00 in the NL facing a pitcher every nine batters in a weak division and a weak league...that because we traded for him all of a sudden Kenny "must've seen something we didn't know"

 

everything about his stats thus far is terrible. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I just can't see him being very successful moving from one of the worst divisions in the NL to the toughest division in the AL

 

I'm much more optimistic on Danks, but for 2008, not 2007.

[Balta1701]

so 108 innings in the major leagues is suddenly not enough to judge a player? Fine. Is 151 enough? I wonder why so many people on this website have formed extremely solid opinions of brandon mccarthy one way or the other...

Now, I'm not going to get dragged into the rest of this debate, but this is an obvious logical fallacy (hasty generalization, btw). Your sample size of 1 pitcher for comparison tells us almost nothing of value.

 

Here's the reality...there are some pitchers that you can tell right freaking away that they're going to be pretty darn good. Think about the first innings we saw in the big leagues from Justin Verlander, Fransisco Liriano, Jared Weaver, and Jonathon Papelbon. They came out like stars almost from inning 1.

 

On the other hand, there are plenty of pitchers who take some time before they start really showing us what they can do. Jose Contreras is a familiar example to most here, as is Jon Garland. Others such as Chris Carpenter fit on that list as well.

 

And then on the other end, think about some guys who came up and dominated but then disappeared. Kerry Wood. Mark Prior. Josh Beckett. Brad Penny to some extent.

 

108 or 151 innings give you a clue about a pitcher, but it's certainly not the last word on the subject. They could be dominant and do nothing afterwards, be bad and stay bad, or be bad and eventually grow up.

 

I think McCarthy has a real good shot to be a dominant pitcher based on what I've seen of him. But it's certainly not the last word on it. If he can't keep the changeup working and the curve ball down, he's going to get murdered for the next few years. We'll see.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Balta1701

[Hideaway Lights]

my point was that some people seem to have a very good idea of where brandon mccarthy is going to be, but "the jury's still out" on floyd...seem hypocritical.

 

here's my main question - how many pitchers have pitched an over 7 era in the NL for their first 100 innings and then regained form to become serviceable major league pitchers? It's not like Garland or Contreras where he's hanging around the high 5s and 6s in the AL, he's in the SEVENS in the NL!

[Greg The Bull Luzinski]

On a separate thought, is it too late to enter the Jim Parque sweepstakes?

[Balta1701]

my point was that some people seem to have a very good idea of where brandon mccarthy is going to be, but "the jury's still out" on floyd...seem hypocritical.

 

here's my main question - how many pitchers have pitched an over 7 era in the NL for their first 100 innings and then regained form to become serviceable major league pitchers? It's not like Garland or Contreras where he's hanging around the high 5s and 6s in the AL, he's in the SEVENS in the NL!

Jason Schmidt put up a 6.50 ERA in the NL his first 85 innings.

Roy Halladay put up an ERA of 10 in 13 starts in 2000.

 

I'm sure there are more examples out there. The kid may very well wind up sucking, but 100 innings over 3 seasons isn't going to convince me very well.

[Dick Allen]

Jason Schmidt put up a 6.50 ERA in the NL his first 85 innings.

Roy Halladay put up an ERA of 10 in 13 starts in 2000.

 

I'm sure there are more examples out there. The kid may very well wind up sucking, but 100 innings over 3 seasons isn't going to convince me very well.

Greg Maddux first 186 innings, 8-16 5.59 ERA

Tom Glavine first 245 innings, 9-21 4.76 ERA

 

That's in the NL no DH.

[Balta1701]

Greg Maddux first 186 innings, 8-16 5.59 ERA

Tom Glavine first 245 innings, 9-21 4.76 ERA

 

That's in the NL no DH.

And...before the late 90's Steroid and other causes fueled offensive explosion