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kman

Sox Vs. Royals

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Yes, Gavin, keep dominating September callups so we unwisely entrust you with a starting spot next year!

 

^^ ok, thats a TAD pessimistic.

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QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 01:00 PM)
Yes, Gavin, keep dominating September callups so we unwisely entrust you with a starting spot next year!

 

^^ ok, thats a TAD pessimistic.

Nevermind that his last two starts, both solid, were against the two playoff contending teams in this division.

 

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QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 01:53 PM)
Nevermind that his last two starts, both solid, were against the two playoff contending teams in this division.

Freddy Garcia looked pretty good last September.

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 10:09 PM)
Freddy Garcia looked pretty good last September.

 

So we can expect Gavin to go under the knife next April?

 

I love pointless (stupid? dumb?) comparisons.

Edited by CWSGuy406

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:09 PM)
Freddy Garcia looked pretty good last September.

I'm sure you are trying to make a point here, but I can't tell what it is. Are you saying Floyd is also suffering from some sort of injury? Or that we are going to trade Floyd this offseason? Or that Floyd is also related to Ozzie in some way?

 

:huh

 

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QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:14 PM)
I'm sure you are trying to make a point here, but I can't tell what it is. Are you saying Floyd is also suffering from some sort of injury? Or that we are going to trade Floyd this offseason? Or that Floyd is also related to Ozzie in some way?

 

:huh

What I am saying is these games mean squat. To win a job with the White Sox based on what you do in September would be a mistake. I am thankful KW knows it. Floyd pitched well against a depleted Detroit line-up and pitched well against a Cleveland team that has a comfortable lead in the division that got to bed at 6AM on a long rainy night in Chicago. They probably weren't too fired up about playing the last place White Sox.

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QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:13 PM)
So we can expect Gavin to go under the knife next April?

 

I love pointless (stupid? dumb?) comparisons.

September stats is the comparison. You may think its dumb or stupid, but I don't. Besides almost everyone said Freddy was pitching injured all of last season, even me, as dumb or stupid as I am.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:19 PM)
What I am saying is these games mean squat. To win a job with the White Sox based on what you do in September would be a mistake. I am thankful KW knows it. Floyd pitched well against a depleted Detroit line-up and pitched well against a Cleveland team that has a comfortable lead in the division that got to bed at 6AM on a long rainy night in Chicago. They probably weren't too fired up about playing the last place White Sox.

:lol: You kill me, man. What the heck does that even have to do with Freddy Garcia? Was he auditioning for a job with the 2007 White Sox? No. He had one or was going to be traded, but he sure wasn't auditioning. Nor is he 25, or just breaking in to the majors, or in any other way comparable to Floyd.

 

And we all know it doesn't matter to you if Floyd goes out and pitches yet another good game, because in your view he sucks and will never get better. Got it. Thankfully, KW and most baseball folks realize that players are not all static, which is the main reason he is getting these starts (the other being a possiblity he is traded, but I doubt that). Why else, do you suppose, they are sending him out there?

 

I don't even think Floyd is that good - but I can see the obvious fact that he is getting better. I now think he may even be a serviceable 5th starter, if he keeps this up in his last couple starts. My eyes are not completely clouded by my previous assessments.

 

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Guys win and lose jobs all the time in Spring Training. Practice games. They don't count for anything, yet roles are defined, and opinions are formed. Your saying these games in September mean LESS than games in March?

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QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:28 PM)
:lol: You kill me, man. What the heck does that even have to do with Freddy Garcia? Was he auditioning for a job with the 2007 White Sox? No. He had one or was going to be traded, but he sure wasn't auditioning. Nor is he 25, or just breaking in to the majors, or in any other way comparable to Floyd.

 

And we all know it doesn't matter to you if Floyd goes out and pitches yet another good game, because in your view he sucks and will never get better. Got it. Thankfully, KW and most baseball folks realize that players are not all static, which is the main reason he is getting these starts (the other being a possiblity he is traded, but I doubt that). Why else, do you suppose, they are sending him out there?

 

I don't even think Floyd is that good - but I can see the obvious fact that he is getting better. I now think he may even be a serviceable 5th starter, if he keeps this up in his last couple starts. My eyes are not completely clouded by my previous assessments.

Although his W-L record was pretty good, Garcia was awful in 2006 until the last month or so. I would be willing to bet if you went back and searched, that several people, maybe even yourself thought that Freddy had learned to pitch with his decreased velocity and should be good for 15+ wins in 2007. I am not of the opinion 1 or 2 starts in meaningless games makes up for the garbage that came out of his hand when the games had at least a little meaning. What would doing good or bad tonight mean for 2008 for Floyd?

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QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:30 PM)
Guys win and lose jobs all the time in Spring Training. Practice games. They don't count for anything, yet roles are defined, and opinions are formed. Your saying these games in September mean LESS than games in March?

I believe they do. If Floyd went 5-0 with a 1.23 ERA this September, but had a 15.00 ERA in spring training next year, chances are he would have no chance to start out in the rotation. If he were 0-4 with an ERA of 11.00 this September, but had a 2.50 ERA in the spring, he would have a much better shot at a spot in the rotation.

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 03:37 PM)
Although his W-L record was pretty good, Garcia was awful in 2006 until the last month or so. I would be willing to bet if you went back and searched, that several people, maybe even yourself thought that Freddy had learned to pitch with his decreased velocity and should be good for 15+ wins in 2007. I am not of the opinion 1 or 2 starts in meaningless games makes up for the garbage that came out of his hand when the games had at least a little meaning. What would doing good or bad tonight mean for 2008 for Floyd?

A poor outing tonight would certainly make it harder to justify opening up a rotation spot for Floyd next year. I would really, really like to see him finish the year without another disastrous outing. Just put up quality starts, that's what I'm sort of hoping for. If he can't hold his own against the Royals in Sept., then even I'd have to question whether we could expect anything better from him next season.

 

These Sept. performances are all we're going to have to base probably our biggest offseason decision on; do we trade Mr. Garland or not? If Gavin Floyd can't cut it in the last couple trial outings, even if they are just september tryouts, then you can't trade Garland unless you have someone else lined up to fill that role.

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:40 PM)
I believe they do. If Floyd went 5-0 with a 1.23 ERA this September, but had a 15.00 ERA in spring training next year, chances are he would have no chance to start out in the rotation. If he were 0-4 with an ERA of 11.00 this September, but had a 2.50 ERA in the spring, he would have a much better shot at a spot in the rotation.

 

That doesn't make it right. You can spout all the excuses you want to discredit the success Floyd has had recently(it was raining, Detroit is too big of a park to Floyd to pitch in, the Indians were too sleepy....) but I'll take the starts in September against a lineup of 8 or 9 major leaguers, compared to the 3 or 4 he is probably going to see in March.

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 03:40 PM)
I believe they do. If Floyd went 5-0 with a 1.23 ERA this September, but had a 15.00 ERA in spring training next year, chances are he would have no chance to start out in the rotation. If he were 0-4 with an ERA of 11.00 this September, but had a 2.50 ERA in the spring, he would have a much better shot at a spot in the rotation.

The problem is...you almost have to make your decision on Floyd before the spring...because making the decision on Floyd if it's a yes requires an open rotation spot. If you're considering Garland for Furcal...you're doing so with the expectation that Floyd has shown you enough to decide that he'll be at worst an adequate 5th starter next season. You can't just hold onto Garland until the end of ST...not when you have to decide whether or not to pick up the option on Uribe and figure out who's your SS if you don't.

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QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:41 PM)
A poor outing tonight would certainly make it harder to justify opening up a rotation spot for Floyd next year. I would really, really like to see him finish the year without another disastrous outing. Just put up quality starts, that's what I'm sort of hoping for. If he can't hold his own against the Royals in Sept., then even I'd have to question whether we could expect anything better from him next season.

 

These Sept. performances are all we're going to have to base probably our biggest offseason decision on; do we trade Mr. Garland or not? If Gavin Floyd can't cut it in the last couple trial outings, even if they are just september tryouts, then you can't trade Garland unless you have someone else lined up to fill that role.

You're making my point. I don't think an outing in a battle for 4th place on September 18th should have any bearing on Gavin Floyd's position with the 2008 White Sox whether he gives up 10 runs in the first, or pitches a perfect game. My point I made over a month ago was Floyd can't possibly guarantee himself a spot in the White Sox rotation in 2008 before 2007 was over, no matter how he pitched. If KW doesn't let him go this winter, he is going to have to make the team in spring training. I think he should be a reliever, and was glad when they threw him in the bullpen. I think the guy is a head case and Ozzie could pick his spots, besides its not like he would have had to have been all that great to unseat a guy like Bukvich. I understand getting Danks a break, I still think Floyd in the rotation when wins matter is a big mistake.

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There is a whole other issue the Sox are looking at with Floyd. Yes, these results do matter in their evaluation process and frankly so will results in Tucson in March.

 

But they are watching several other factors in making this evaluation.

 

- is he working at the tempo they want him at.

- how is he in sync with the catcher.

- how does he react when he gives up a bomb.

- what kind of composure does he show when he gets into a jam.

- how are his side sessions, is he putting in the necessary work and listening to Cooper and Kusnyer.

- how is he doing mechanically, is he implementing the changes the coaches insisted upon.

- is he conducting himself as a pro in the clubhouse.

 

Let's face it. Whether we like it or not the Sox have a significant investment in this guy, they love his arm but aren't completely sold on all the peripheral issues that are often the difference between success and failure in the big leagues.

 

Right or wrong they have already decided this guy CAN be successful in the big leagues. Again, right or wrong and whether we as fans like it or not. They have told him in very specific terms what he needs to do to be successful. Every pitcher will get knocked around, it happens. Right now they are more tuned in to other evaluative factors. It is almost solely up to Gavin at this point, he has made strides in all these areas recently and they will watch this stuff closely tonight and for two more starts.

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QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:43 PM)
The problem is...you almost have to make your decision on Floyd before the spring...because making the decision on Floyd if it's a yes requires an open rotation spot. If you're considering Garland for Furcal...you're doing so with the expectation that Floyd has shown you enough to decide that he'll be at worst an adequate 5th starter next season. You can't just hold onto Garland until the end of ST...not when you have to decide whether or not to pick up the option on Uribe and figure out who's your SS if you don't.

I think they will trade Garland no matter what. Its too bad there isn't a guy like Paul Byrd available to sign as a free agent. If he's available cheap and for a year or so, I wouldn't rule out KW looking at Bartolo Colon. He didn't look all that great Friday, but he hadn't pitched in a while and he was between 91-94 during the game. If I knew he could make it through the season, which obviously can't be determined and you would probably have to be very skeptical, I would prefer Colon at $4-5 million than Garland at $12 million for 1 year. That's just me though.

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 05:56 PM)
I think they will trade Garland no matter what. Its too bad there isn't a guy like Paul Byrd available to sign as a free agent. If he's available cheap and for a year or so, I wouldn't rule out KW looking at Bartolo Colon. He didn't look all that great Friday, but he hadn't pitched in a while and he was between 91-94 during the game. If I knew he could make it through the season, which obviously can't be determined and you would probably have to be very skeptical, I would prefer Colon at $4-5 million than Garland at $12 million for 1 year. That's just me though.

 

I kind of agree with this thought, and I believe Garcia could also be an option, if at all healthy. I'm not sure what his situation will be by March, but I really don't think there were any bridges burnt by either side with the Freddy trade.

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I think they will trade Garland no matter what. Its too bad there isn't a guy like Paul Byrd available to sign as a free agent. If he's available cheap and for a year or so, I wouldn't rule out KW looking at Bartolo Colon. He didn't look all that great Friday, but he hadn't pitched in a while and he was between 91-94 during the game. If I knew he could make it through the season, which obviously can't be determined and you would probably have to be very skeptical, I would prefer Colon at $4-5 million than Garland at $12 million for 1 year. That's just me though.

 

You are on the right track in my opinion and I am putting bits and pieces together from what little whispers I hear. Not necessarily on Colon but someone of that ilk. A rehabbing veteran on a make good contract with a low base and high incentives. Someone they can DL at the start of the year and work them in later. There are a number of guys out there that fit the profile, the obvious is Freddy Garcia but he may be out all of next year.

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QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 11:04 PM)
You are on the right track in my opinion and I am putting bits and pieces together from what little whispers I hear. Not necessarily on Colon but someone of that ilk. A rehabbing veteran on a make good contract with a low base and high incentives. Someone they can DL at the start of the year and work them in later. There are a number of guys out there that fit the profile, the obvious is Freddy Garcia but he may be out all of next year.

 

Mark Prior

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If we trade Jon Garland and not Jose Contreras this team will be making a huge error. Jose should be the one they market, but if they can't trade him fine. We are going to be breaking up a strong starting staff and most likely not get the pieces of the winning team we will need. Either Danks or Flopyd will be the 5th starter. Maybe the other one will be the long relief man-spot starter. Garland has so much upside and was a two time 18 game winner for the Sox. Every year we go through the same sorry scenarios of trading Garland. We trade Jon and fill a hole maybe only to open one up in the pitching staff. You don't build a championship team that way. I would keep Jon no matter what and fill spots through free agent signings. 3B is a problem that will be filled when Crede is back in 2008 and Fields takes over LF. CF might be an issue, but we have options. SS is really the only concern besides the bullpen.

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QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Sep 18, 2007 -> 11:56 PM)
If we trade Jon Garland and not Jose Contreras this team will be making a huge error. Jose should be the one they market, but if they can't trade him fine. We are going to be breaking up a strong starting staff and most likely not get the pieces of the winning team we will need. Either Danks or Flopyd will be the 5th starter. Maybe the other one will be the long relief man-spot starter. Garland has so much upside and was a two time 18 game winner for the Sox. Every year we go through the same sorry scenarios of trading Garland. We trade Jon and fill a hole maybe only to open one up in the pitching staff. You don't build a championship team that way. I would keep Jon no matter what and fill spots through free agent signings. 3B is a problem that will be filled when Crede is back in 2008 and Fields takes over LF. CF might be an issue, but we have options. SS is really the only concern besides the bullpen.

 

Garland's going to be gone after next season, so it's much smarter to trade him if you can get 2 or 3 pieces that will be around for the next 5 years.

 

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