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Steve9347

White Sox Acquire Nick Swisher from Athletics

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QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 10:14 PM)
You like them because it is not our team. Contreras, Danks, and Floyd are finished/not good enough yet respectively because, emotionally invested, you watched them do poorly last year. Bonderman, however, is great. He's Bonderman, that guy who everyone's talked about for a few years and he's gonna be great, so he's very good. Never mind that he was bad last year and in 5 full years as a starter he's had exactly 1 year that was at least league average. He's good, he's to be feared, he's Bonderman. Oh, and Willis, too. He almost won a Cy Young. Last year didn't happen. And Kenny Rogers is fine he's great. He started 11 games last year. Contreras, that guy is old, he's done. He's 48, really. Sure he was pretty awesome when he was like 46, but he's 48 now. Rogers is only 43.

I'd take Bonderman's stuff over every person in the Sox rotation not named Javy, but I will admit his numbers have been nothing but mediorce. Than again a lot of people said similar things about Josh Beckett for a couple years, especially his first season or so in Boston where he was again mediocre. Everyone knew he had amazing stuff but between blister trouble and inconsistencies he wasn't dominate. Than all of a sudden last season rolled out around and he officially emerged.

 

I know one thing, Bonderman's numbers may not have been great, but I and every other baseball person would love to have him in the front 3 of your rotation and if the Tigers are down on him I'd love to find a way to make an interdivision trade.

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QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 11:07 PM)
You've got to think that the clubhouse is going to be a lot looser and much funner this year. You've already got guys like Buehrle and Pierzynski, and now you add the Aaron Rowand-esque personality of Nick Swisher. And on top of that, I read that Fields and Quentin were good friends. And of course you got Papa Thome, the great story teller. If Ramirez makes the roster, then Contreras has got a new friend, and Bobby Jenks is a bit of a personality himself.

Plus Orlando Cabrera who is hillarious and just the ultimate team guy.

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QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 01:32 AM)
I'd take Bonderman's stuff over every person in the Sox rotation not named Javy, but I will admit his numbers have been nothing but mediorce. Than again a lot of people said similar things about Josh Beckett for a couple years, especially his first season or so in Boston where he was again mediocre. Everyone knew he had amazing stuff but between blister trouble and inconsistencies he wasn't dominate. Than all of a sudden last season rolled out around and he officially emerged.

 

I know one thing, Bonderman's numbers may not have been great, but I and every other baseball person would love to have him in the front 3 of your rotation and if the Tigers are down on him I'd love to find a way to make an interdivision trade.

I would take his stuff but not his head or character over Buehrle. I might, maybe take his head over Javy. But not 07 javy.

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QUOTE(Gbubbs @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 11:44 PM)
I would take his stuff but not his head or character over Buehrle. I might, maybe take his head over Javy. But not 07 javy.

I completely agree with that. Obviously something isn't necessarily all there or going right when a guy with Bonderman's stuff isn't perennially contending for the CY Young. However, that isn't to say a guy can't make progress and turn into that front line pitcher. Bondy is still very young, despite having 5 seasons under his belt and is a guy that any contender would like to have in his rotation.

 

Also, if it makes anyone feel better, I completely feel that the Tigers rotation is way over-rated. Aside from Verlander and to a lesser extent Bonderman (because I think he could very well be a total stud) they don't have anyone that truly scares me (Willis could surprise the AL for a season, but he could also get the living snot knocked out of him, especially if his velocity continues to slip and well Kenny Rogers is only getting older and its just a matter of time till his ERA takes a major crap, plus we already know he isn't likely to stay healthy for a full season). Robertson is over-rated as can be and they don't have Miller anymore (Thank GOODNESS).

 

The TIgers offense is definitely stacked though and they still have Todd Jones as a closer (YUCK) so right now I'd say they have some sexier names in the rotation, a sexier lineup (although the Sox lineup isn't too shabby) and in all reality not that much better of a team.

 

Cleveland is a far more complete team, imo, given that CC, Carmona, Westbrook is a very solid 1-3 and the tribe can hope Cliff Lee pans out (which is more likely than Rogers having a good season) and some young prospects that could slide into the rotation (plus they have Roid man Byrd).

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It's a damn shame I didn't even know this until 1:50 am, but I love this trade even though DLS might be damn good in a few years. Kenny has really surprised me this offseason.

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For everyone who is dogging this trade calling DLS and Gio "aces if they stay healthy" i would like to point something out...

 

its simple... really... are you ready?

 

Our top prospects over the last 5-6 years have been... Jon Rauch, Brandon McCarthy, Kris Honel, Joe Borchard, Jeremy Reed, Bobby Jenks, Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Joe Crede, Matt Ginter, Dan Wright, Kip Wells, JOsh Fields, and Jon Garland...

 

Of all those guys who have once been in Baseball AMerica's top 100 and towards the top of our W. sox prospect lists only Jenks, Garland, and to a lesser extent Crede, Wells, and Rauch have done much in the majors. Rauch is a decent RP. Crede had a couple mediocre years and one good year, now is often injured. Jenks is a stud, Garland is a solid SP. Kip is a below average SP.

 

OTHER THAN THAT MOST ARENT ON ANYONES RADAR ANYMORE!

 

you say to me: "well s*** steve, DLS and Gio are great and have tons of potential. i mean crap, Gio led the majors in K's and Sweeney is still young and DLS has GREAT STUFF!"

 

I say NAY! Sweeney looks an aweful lot like Jeremy Reed to me. and we dealt him from a position of excess (OF) where we still have young guys like Owens and B. Anderson to go along with Dye, Quenten, and Swisher. I care not about Sweeney's inclusion because he is a prospect, and has a long way to go to be anything more then an average major leaguer. Brandon Mccarthy and Rauch once led the minors in K's too... then they got to the majors and couldn't strike out anyone. Gio has a filthy curve yes, but his change is subpar and he is inconsistent with his fastball velocity and command. if he doesnt improve drastically in those areas he wont ever be more than a #4-5 SP. Fautino has a great fastball and curve, but no changeup. the higher up he goes, the more you are gonna see people hit him if he doesnt develop one. moreover... HES IN SINGLE A! he is at a minimun 2 years away, and not only that has to continue to improve and stay healthy. THEENNNNN he has to prove it at the major league level...

 

Prospect lovers, if you would like to hinge the future of this franchise on those who haven't proven a thing on the major league level then you are no better than a gambler who more often than not loses his money. more often than not prospects do not come through on their promise. is that to say that KW should deal all our young players? no... but in a trade where we land a great 27 year old OF with star qualities it does make sense. Swisher instantly becomes one of the faces of this franchise, and will be beloved in Chicago (which btw is a place none of the 3 guys we traded were gonna be this season). Hope and potential are nasty words in sports, and I for one have grown tired of waiting on the promise of our top prospects only to watch them suck once they get to chicago. if 5 years from now Sweeney is a solid corner outfielder, Gio is a #2 and DLS is a #1 then eff me, but realize that that is a best case scenario, and even then THAT SCENARIO WONT EVEN HAPPEN FOR 5 YEARS! by then we will have new top prospects for everyone to hype and cry in their pillows over so everyone chear up and WELCOME NICK SWISHER, and FREAKIN FANTASIC ADDITION to a lineup that desperately needed OBP and young MAJOR LEAGUE talent

 

"Steve you're smart!"

 

I know

 

Good trade Kenny

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QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 04:52 PM)
OK, now with a bit of research, prospects (pitching) that are better than DLS:

 

Hughes, Chamberlain, Cueto, Bailey, Kershaw, Carrasco, Morales, Price, Porcello, Volstad, Bucholz, both Millers, McGee, Gio, Elbert...?

I'd still rank DLS higher than Gio based on potential, although Gio is certainly more advanced.

 

I dunno, I think he would sneak into the top 10, but it's only my opinion, and I might be in the minority here. But I think he's certainly a top 50 prospect as a minimum Rock Raines.

 

He's a B+ prospect as a minimum, and could be rated as a A prospect or a 5 star spect IMHO.

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QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 06:27 PM)
On the other hand he is in A ball, only has two good pitches, and was 21 at A ball (which isn't necesarrily young). I love the guy to death but there are a great number of pitchers with superior upside in baseball. He was our best option (along with Gio) but by all means he doesn't rank in the top 10 in baseball, the Sox don't have anyone in that category and if they did it would be if Aaron Poreda proved all the doubters wrong and developed great secondary stuff and didn't have his arm fall off.

Ok those are some good points. You have to remember it was his 1st full season in the minors though in regards to his age.

 

I think he would have done very well in Birmingham at some point in 2008 if given the opportunity, considering it's a pitchers park and all, and that could have raised his value even more.

 

Obviously a lot depends on if he can develop that changeup, but the Sox have a fairly good record of developing secondary stuff for their pitchers at the minor league level.

 

Obviously he's a high risk prospect, but potentially down the line if everything pans out for him, I think he's an ace.

 

I just find it a little funny how at the ASB everybody was slurping this guy after his performance at the Futures Game, and everyone saying we had a hell of a prospect on our hands, and now some people are saying he's overrated and not even a top 50 prospect in baseball.

 

It just shows how much you can flip - flop on something here.

 

 

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QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 02:50 AM)
Also, if it makes anyone feel better, I completely feel that the Tigers rotation is way over-rated.

I used to have a really hard time convincing Tigers fans of this but some of them are finally coming around. They have as many question marks in their rotation than we do, honestly.

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I haven't read all 34 pages of this thread but I imagine somewhere in here, someone had to say "wow we have quite literally NO farm system right now." Although we didn't have much of anything before. I guess as of right now, pending a little luck and possibly a Uribe, Crede, or even Konerko trade the MLB roster is steady enough to last a couple of years while the allegedly-fixed scouting dept. can re-do some of the really bad drafts we've had over the past few years. Keeping my fingers crossed, I was pretty pessimistic a few weeks ago but it's not implausible to think this org. can get back in shape.

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A lot more has to happen for Oakland to win this trade than the Sox. As of now, the Sox know they are getting a proven commodity for at least the next four seasons, while the A's are not guaranteed of ANYTHING

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QUOTE(juddling @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 03:45 PM)
i think the same was said when Royce Ring was traded. He then went on to be traded 3 or 4 more times that season IIRC. Sox traded him twice in the last few years and Phillies got him and gave him back so mabye his sh*t isn't as good as everyone thinks it is.

 

I watched him pitch for an entire season. He's capable of dominating with just his fastball. He's good, it will come back to haunt the White Sox.

 

 

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What do you guys think the lineup would be if the season started now?

I'm thinkin:

Owens CF

Cabrera SS

Swisher LF

Thome DH

Konerko 1B

Dye RF

Pierzynski C

Fields 3B

Richar 2B

 

I just don't buy Swisher being the every day CF...

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Its been a while since I've posted on the forum, glad to see others have picked up the Reggie Gene Willits banner in my absence.

 

First off I love this deal.

 

The sox have a chance to compete in '08 an outside chance but a chance none the less. Swisher is just what this team needs; a fresh face for this franchise. I hope Ozzie can get over himself and bat him leadoff and leave Ocab where he is comfortable in the 2 hole. I'd much rather have my leadoff hitter hit a double than get picked off attempting to steal second; but thats just me.

 

As others have mentioned KW has revamped our young ML core, swisher will be here for the next 5 years. At least next year should be interesting to watch (Danks, Floyd, Swisher, Fields, Quentin, Richar)

 

The sox need alot of the breaks to go their way if we look to compete.

 

 

 

 

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If someone wants to call me naive and inform me, I'm all for it. But let me ask this...

 

Why is everyone so up in arms about losing the prospects? Sure we potentially lose a lot, but

 

1) none may pan out

 

2) isn't it (theoretically) just a decision to spend more on the present EVERY year? it's not just going for 2008. it means JR will have to spend more each year to come.

 

 

 

Not saying JR will, but theoretically, isnt it something you shouldnt get up in arms about? if we just drained the minor league pitching, then said pitching will never see the big leagues. we'll replace that with actual major leaguers.

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So now the team has an outfield of Quentin-Swisher-Dye. Seems to me, that either in mid-2008 (if the Sox aren't contending) or between 2008 and 2009 (if they are), they'll trade Dye for his remaining year, and the outfield becomes Swisher-Ramirez-Quentin. Plus Owens is still in the wings just in case Ramirez doesn't pan out. Looks pretty good to me.

 

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Swisher is going to prove he's ELITE this year. our two best prospects are just that OUR two best. Would I trade Minnesota's two best, or Florida's two best? probably not... there's a lot of unearned weight to that statement. the white sox have the worst farm system in baseball... trading questionable minor league talent, including DLS who is 3 years away from the MLB bullpen, Sweeney who wasn't getting another shot, and a guy traded more than Kenny Lofton (Gio)... for a player with Swisher's type of elite upside, its a no-brainer.

 

As much as Phil Rogers wants to say he's enamored off of a one-inning appearance by DLS in the Future's Game and what he saw out of Gio 1.5 years ago when he was in the Phillies Spring Training (and heading into his FIRST season in AA) I don't put any stock into what he says.

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QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 01:33 PM)
and almost as bad as Detroit!

lol, I know you are kidding but I honestly believe we will finish the year with a better record than detroit. Their rotation is the most questionable in the AL central.

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QUOTE(max power @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 09:17 AM)
lol, I know you are kidding but I honestly believe we will finish the year with a better record than detroit. Their rotation is the most questionable in the AL central.

I need to smoke whatever it is you are smoking with that statement.

Edited by Steve9347

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Detroit's 2008 lineup, barring major injuries, might even be better than ours was in 2006. That lineup won us 90 games.

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QUOTE(max power @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 09:17 AM)
QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 01:33 PM) *

and almost as bad as Detroit!

 

lol, I know you are kidding but I honestly believe we will finish the year with a better record than detroit. Their rotation is the most questionable in the AL central.

 

I wasn't really kidding. "bad as Detroit" was referring to the farm system's now. Someone wrote that we're worse than Houston. Obviously, all 3 are totally depleted but I can't tell which one is actually worst. I'd guess Houston.

 

 

I agree with you that 90% of people worry, complain, and convince themselves of how bad our rotation (or team) is and willfully ignore gaping holes on other rotations (and teams).

 

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Detroit did pretty much mortgage their future for Cabrera though, but their GM has been money in the draft so if I was a Tiger fan I wouldn't worry too much.

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QUOTE(bmags @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 12:48 AM)
what the hell is this about?

Not a personal attack or anything. Just illustrating my point that people will hyper-focus on the question marks surrounding our team (our rotation in this case) and the COMPLETELY GIVE A PASS to other teams with the same or similar ????s.

 

Chisoxfn pointed out how Bonderman's stuff is great but admitted his performance hasn't measured up.

 

If Bonderman were on the Sox all these years putting up the EXACT same performance, a majority of people here would have been calling for his head by his second season (and probably his first). "He's worthless, sell him for a bag of balls, he's a head case, I don't give a crap about STUFF if you can't get hitters out," etc, etc, etc.

 

And that's just Bonderman. That's not even mentioning their 3-5 starters.

Edited by Vance Law

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