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White Sox Acquire Nick Swisher from Athletics

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QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 11:17 AM)
Not a personal attack or anything. Just illustrating my point that people will hyper-focus on the question marks surrounding our team (our rotation in this case) and the COMPLETELY GIVE A PASS to other teams with the same or similar ????s.

 

Chisoxfn pointed out how Bonderman's stuff is great but admitted his performance hasn't measured up.

 

If Bonderman were on the Sox all these years putting up the EXACT same performance, a majority of people here would have been calling for his head by his second season (and probably his first). "He's worthless, sell him for a bag of balls, he's a head case, I don't give a crap about STUFF if you can't get hitters out," etc, etc, etc.

 

And that's just Bonderman. That's not even mentioning their 3-5 starters.

I do not think Bonderman will ever be any more than he is. Meaning on Monday he's a #3, on Wednesday he's a #1, on next Tuesday he's David Aardsma. He's got a plenty big sample size now, and a pattern established, and if he hasn't developed this elusive "consistency" people say he needs by now after... what... 5 years, he's just not going to. He will always have nasty stuff, but if he ever puts it all together I'll be surprised.

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QUOTE(lostfan @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 08:26 AM)
Detroit's 2008 lineup, barring major injuries, might even be better than ours was in 2006. That lineup won us 90 games.

I can't see some of the Tigers having the same kind of years as they did in 2007. Magglio played out of his mind, I can only imagine that he will regress. I-Rod is now 36, there will probably be a huge drop-off with him. Renteria was not as good in the AL the last time and Jones is their starting LF. Sheffield is in his post-roid era, will be 39 and Todd Jones will be 40. Rogers is 43 and Willis is bringing a +5 ERA from the NL.

 

The lineup will still be good because MCab will offset most of the decline from the other players, but they will still have some holes, and they are not getting any younger.

 

I-Rod - 36

Guillen - 32

Polanco - 32

Renteria - 32

Cabrera - 25

Jones - 33

Granderson -27

Ordonez - 34

Sheffield - 39

 

On average, the Tigers lineup is over 2 years older than the Sox. If we drop Thome and Dye within the next two years, our oldest starter would be OCab. If he is not re-signed, then it would be Konerko. So the Sox are only a couple of players away from being young and cheap throughout the lineup. The Tigers only have 2 players under 30, and 3 if you count Thames as a starter over Jones. They can quickly become the Giants of the AL if they are not careful.

Edited by RME JICO

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QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 10:17 AM)
Not a personal attack or anything. Just illustrating my point that people will hyper-focus on the question marks surrounding our team (our rotation in this case) and the COMPLETELY GIVE A PASS to other teams with the same or similar ????s.

 

Chisoxfn pointed out how Bonderman's stuff is great but admitted his performance hasn't measured up.

 

If Bonderman were on the Sox all these years putting up the EXACT same performance, a majority of people here would have been calling for his head by his second season (and probably his first). "He's worthless, sell him for a bag of balls, he's a head case, I don't give a crap about STUFF if you can't get hitters out," etc, etc, etc.

 

And that's just Bonderman. That's not even mentioning their 3-5 starters.

 

Nate Robertson has turned into a decent 3 or 4 starter. Kenny Rogers is still a decent 3 or 4 starter. Dontrelle Willis will be a decent 3 or 4 starter, and I think he'll be very good his first couple times around the AL. Verlander's a stud, and Bonderman should be pretty solid - I'm still waiting for him to break through, but he never has. Perhaps that's next year; his career has thus far mimicked Jon Garland's pretty well, and Garland had a monster year in his age 25 season. Perhaps Bonderman will, hopefully he doesn't. Only time will tell.

 

Regardless, I'd much rather have Detroit's rotation than the Sox' rotation. They do provide experience, and have all been very solid recently, which cannot be said about 3/5ths of the White Sox rotation. Neither are very good, but I do believe that Detroit's is better and has a higher upside.

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i like bonderman, they pushed the kid up when he was very young and he had growing pains. Last year he was up and down, but I think he IS closer to the 06 bonderman than the 07.

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QUOTE(bmags @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 10:46 AM)
i like bonderman, they pushed the kid up when he was very young and he had growing pains. Last year he was up and down, but I think he IS closer to the 06 bonderman than the 07.

He's had ups and downs in every season. He's got a great arm, he just hasn't put it all together yet, who knows if he ever will. I agree pretty much completely with Wite's post besides on Willis as I think he's going to get absolutely lit up in the American league. Detroits rotation is shaky, ours is a little more so.

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So, since this has become a general sox thread now...

 

I really want to know whether ramirez is thought to be a future starter for us, and if so if that is taking over SS or in the OF? I wish KW would talk about him, so those of you going to the fan convention, ask away.

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QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 09:24 AM)
I need to smoke whatever it is you are smoking with that statement.

Whose is more questionable? Dontrelle willis is coming off a s*** year in the NL. Kenny Rogers is 110 years old and was injured all year. Bonderman has had one good year, he sucks. Robertson the same, he sucks. All they have is Verlander, who projects according to one source to have a 3.76 era this coming year. The other guy who might make the rotation has very little big league experience. How often do guys come up and pitch well in their first major experience? Not very.

 

They have one guy they can reasonable expect to have a good year. Even the sox have two.

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The major difference between the Sox' and Tigers' rotations is this...their question marks are proven at the Major League level. The questions they have is what level they will perform at, but you can bet that all of them will be effective enough to remain at the Major League level. We don't even know if 40% of our rotation can even pitch at the Major League level. Detroit's rotation is a lot more stable going into this season.

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QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 10:41 AM)
Nate Robertson has turned into a decent 3 or 4 starter. Kenny Rogers is still a decent 3 or 4 starter. Dontrelle Willis will be a decent 3 or 4 starter, and I think he'll be very good his first couple times around the AL. Verlander's a stud, and Bonderman should be pretty solid - I'm still waiting for him to break through, but he never has. Perhaps that's next year; his career has thus far mimicked Jon Garland's pretty well, and Garland had a monster year in his age 25 season. Perhaps Bonderman will, hopefully he doesn't. Only time will tell.

 

Regardless, I'd much rather have Detroit's rotation than the Sox' rotation. They do provide experience, and have all been very solid recently, which cannot be said about 3/5ths of the White Sox rotation. Neither are very good, but I do believe that Detroit's is better and has a higher upside.

Nothing that I can see about what nate did last year was decent.

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QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 11:05 AM)
The major difference between the Sox' and Tigers' rotations is this...their question marks are proven at the Major League level. The questions they have is what level they will perform at, but you can bet that all of them will be effective enough to remain at the Major League level. We don't even know if 40% of our rotation can even pitch at the Major League level. Detroit's rotation is a lot more stable going into this season.

Yeah, two are proven to suck and one is proven to be 43 years old. So what does that prove?

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QUOTE(max power @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 11:07 AM)
Yeah, two are proven to suck and one is proven to be 43 years old. So what does that prove?

 

Who's proven to suck? Why because a couple of them had one down year last season? If that's the case, Contreras is the worst SP in the AL, Danks is horrendous, and Floyd is garbage.

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Don't let Bonderman's 5.01 ERA fool you on exactly how bad he was last year. His component ERC, which measure what pitchers ERA should have been by taking into account his peripherals, was 4.44. Certainly not great, but certainly not horrible.

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QUOTE(bmags @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 10:54 AM)
So, since this has become a general sox thread now...

 

I really want to know whether ramirez is thought to be a future starter for us, and if so if that is taking over SS or in the OF? I wish KW would talk about him, so those of you going to the fan convention, ask away.

 

I think there's something where actually he can't talk about Ramirez because the deal isn't finalized. Ramirez is still going through the red tape to be able to get into the U.S. in order to take a physical.

 

I would say that at the moment (before any games are played, nor spring training) he is not expected to be a starter, but come off the bench at ss 2b and potentially cf. Depending on how he does during the year- best case scenario he's awesome, potentially could be our starting ss next year. See how it goes. If not, he stays as a super-sub. He's only making $1 million a year.

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QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 05:21 PM)
I think there's something where actually he can't talk about Ramirez because the deal isn't finalized. Ramirez is still going through the red tape to be able to get into the U.S. in order to take a physical.

 

I would say that at the moment (before any games are played, nor spring training) he is not expected to be a starter, but come off the bench at ss 2b and potentially cf. Depending on how he does during the year- best case scenario he's awesome, potentially could be our starting ss next year. See how it goes. If not, he stays as a super-sub. He's only making $1 million a year.

 

thanks.

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QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 11:10 AM)
Who's proven to suck? Why because a couple of them had one down year last season? If that's the case, Contreras is the worst SP in the AL, Danks is horrendous, and Floyd is garbage.

Look at their entire careers. That's what I did. They've had one good year each.

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QUOTE(max power @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 11:28 AM)
Look at their entire careers. That's what I did. They've had one good year each.

 

Up until last season, Robertson and Bonderman were steadily improving each season in the bigs. They certainly haven't proven they suck. If these guys suck what the hell does that make Contreras who has been in steady decline or Danks/Floyd who have done jack s*** in the bigs?

 

I love how some people point to other teams players and say they suck after down seasons, yet they are the same people pointing to some of the Sox players' down years as reasons why the Sox will be better in 2008. Which is it? Let's be realistic here.

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QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 11:46 AM)
Up until last season, Robertson and Bonderman were steadily improving each season in the bigs. They certainly haven't proven they suck. If these guys suck what the hell does that make Contreras who has been in steady decline or Danks/Floyd who have done jack s*** in the bigs?

 

I love how some people point to other teams players and say they suck after down seasons, yet they are the same people pointing to some of the Sox players' down years as reasons why the Sox will be better in 2008. Which is it? Let's be realistic here.

 

And then there's those people that look at Sox players after a down year and say they suck but opponents down years are reasons to expect them to rebound.

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QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 12:29 PM)
And then there's those people that look at Sox players after a down year and say they suck but opponents down years are reasons to expect them to rebound.

 

Yep.

 

The Sox offense should be much better than last season even without the new additions and the Tigers rotation should be much better than last season even without the new addition.

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QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 12:46 PM)
Yep.

 

The Sox offense should be much better than last season even without the new additions and the Tigers rotation should be much better than last season even without the new addition.

 

The Sox offense should be much better WITH the new additions. The Tiger's rotation? Hell, I don't know. But Dontrell Willis does not worry me.

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QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 12:51 PM)
The Sox offense should be much better WITH the new additions. The Tiger's rotation? Hell, I don't know. But Dontrell Willis does not worry me.

 

Ok. Reword it, whatever. Willis should be an upgrade over the crap they had in 4/5 spot last season and Bonderman/Robertson should be better after down years last season. So 60% of the rotation should be improved.

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I have to admit I kinda like this trade. Yeah, the Sox gave up a good bit of potential for him, but I still like it. Now, if we can find more pitching I will be completely stoked about the upcoming season.

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QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 12:58 PM)
Ok. Reword it, whatever. Willis should be an upgrade over the crap they had in 4/5 spot last season and Bonderman/Robertson should be better after down years last season. So 60% of the rotation should be improved.

 

Let me reword it this way for clarification purposes. We don't have Pods and Erstad. Uribe won't be starting. We've got a high OBP guy in Swisher, now. The heart of our order all had a down year in '07 and you'd have to expect some of them to get back to their career norms. As for Willis, I just don't believe the guy will have any success in the AL. I may be wrong and if so, I'll say i was wrong. But I think the AL hitters will rock his world.

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QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 01:04 PM)
Let me reword it this way for clarification purposes. We don't have Pods and Erstad. Uribe won't be starting. We've got a high OBP guy in Swisher, now. The heart of our order all had a down year in '07 and you'd have to expect some of them to get back to their career norms. As for Willis, I just don't believe the guy will have any success in the AL. I may be wrong and if so, I'll say i was wrong. But I think the AL hitters will rock his world.

 

That may be so, but what Detroit got out of the 5th spot last season was rocked. At worst, Willis is a lateral move. He'd have to really really suck to be a downgrade. With Bonderman and Robertson rebounding, their rotation should be improved. How much is a different story, but it should see some improvement.

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