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Steve9347

White Sox Acquire Nick Swisher from Athletics

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QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 01:12 PM)
That may be so, but what Detroit got out of the 5th spot last season was rocked. At worst, Willis is a lateral move. He'd have to really really suck to be a downgrade. With Bonderman and Robertson rebounding, their rotation should be improved. How much is a different story, but it should see some improvement.

 

Valid point.

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So, how about your lineups in a perfect world-in a world where the players perform as well as they can. Heres mine.

 

1. Richar 2B

2. Ocab SS

3. thome DH

4. Kong 1B

5. Dye RF

6. Swish CF

7. Fields 3B

8. AJp C

9. Quentin LF

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 01:22 PM)
So, how about your lineups in a perfect world-in a world where the players perform as well as they can. Heres mine.

 

1. Richar 2B

2. Ocab SS

3. thome DH

4. Kong 1B

5. Dye RF

6. Swish CF

7. Fields 3B

8. AJp C

9. Quentin LF

 

I'd go with Swish leading off. He takes a lot of pitches (which is one area Pods was good at) and gets on base a lot. OCab is perfect for the 2 spot. Bump Fields, AJ and Quentin up a spot and put Richar at 9.

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QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 01:25 PM)
I'd go with Swish leading off. He takes a lot of pitches (which is one area Pods was good at) and gets on base a lot. OCab is perfect for the 2 spot. Bump Fields, AJ and Quentin up a spot and put Richar at 9.

 

because he never swung at anything ;)

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 01:22 PM)
So, how about your lineups in a perfect world-in a world where the players perform as well as they can. Heres mine.

 

1. Richar 2B

2. Ocab SS

3. thome DH

4. Kong 1B

5. Dye RF

6. Swish CF

7. Fields 3B

8. AJp C

9. Quentin LF

Having Swisher hitting 6th distinctively kills everything he's good at, use his OBP near the top of the order... cabrera/swisher/thome in a row is awesome... if Richar hits like a beast and can actually lead off, which won't happen, you hit O-Cab 2, Swish 3, Thome 4, Dye 5, Paulie 6...

Edited by Steve9347

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Vs RHP

1. Cabrera

2. Swisher

3. Thome

4. Konerko

5. Dye

6. Fields

7. Pierzynski

8. Quentin

9. Richar

 

I'd bump the order down one vs LHP with Ozuna leading off. I'd sit Thome vs LHP, but I don't know if there's anyone on the bench worth replacing him with.

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Of all the hypothetical batting orders posted here, I must say that it is nice not to see dead weight at the bottom of the order (Uribe and Anderson) like we have the past two years. Richar and Quentin could change that tough.

Edited by Greg The Bull Luzinski

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QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 12:58 PM)
Ok. Reword it, whatever. Willis should be an upgrade over the crap they had in 4/5 spot last season and Bonderman/Robertson should be better after down years last season. So 60% of the rotation should be improved.

Robertson and Bonderman were pretty much at their career averages. A little bit worse but it's not like they were completely awful compared to what they normally are.

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QUOTE(max power @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 11:04 AM)
Whose is more questionable? Dontrelle willis is coming off a s*** year in the NL. Kenny Rogers is 110 years old and was injured all year. Bonderman has had one good year, he sucks. Robertson the same, he sucks. All they have is Verlander, who projects according to one source to have a 3.76 era this coming year. The other guy who might make the rotation has very little big league experience. How often do guys come up and pitch well in their first major experience? Not very.

 

They have one guy they can reasonable expect to have a good year. Even the sox have two.

 

What motivation did Dontrelle have to be good? The Marlins sucked, and he knew they were going to suck. He seems to be the kind of guy who doesn't give a s*** when nobody else gives a s***. Perhaps I'm reading him wrong, but that's what I see. Regardless, he should be a good #5 pitcher for them, and that's really all they'll need out of him.

 

Bonderman is 2-f***ing-5, if he sucks, then so does Garland. If you are about to make that claim, you'll lose any credibility this argument ever had. He's a young pitcher with outstanding stuff who hasn't quite figured it out. I tend to think he'll figure it out at some point, and I think it will be sooner rather than later.

 

Robertson is a good 3-4 starter. Nothing you can say will prove that any differently. You can say "he sucks" but Floyd, Danks, and Contreras all sucked worse last year, and Vazquez and Buehrle both sucked worse as recently as 2006. So your claim that "he sucks" means absolutely nothing to me.

 

Rogers was pretty solid last year upon returning. I don't know why that would change because he's gone from 42 to 43; it's not like his body is going to go from outstanding shape to garbage in a split second. At this point in time, he is who he is until his arm literally falls off of his body, and age seems pretty irrelevent.

 

 

They may only have one guy they can expect to pitch well, where the White Sox have 2, but they have 5 that they can expect to put up an ERA under 5. The White Sox still only have 2.

 

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QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 03:23 PM)
Rogers was pretty solid last year upon returning. I don't know why that would change because he's gone from 42 to 43; it's not like his body is going to go from outstanding shape to garbage in a split second. At this point in time, he is who he is until his arm literally falls off of his body, and age seems pretty irrelevent.

Your argument lost a lot of steam with this one. Rogers' injury last year can easily be blamed on him being old, and he could easily suffer many injuries this year... counting on him now is pretty iffy.

 

Oh, and D-Train sucked balls in a horrible league in a horrible pitchers park. If playing for millions upon millions upon millions of dollars isn't enough for him, then I don't know what other motivation he needs. He burst onto the scene as a kid for a team that went on to win the World Series, and he's been living on that hype ever since. His park adjusted era in the NL is a whopping 4.17. Now, the park doesn't hurt him in Detroit, but I think that's a pretty good indication of the type of pitcher he can only HOPE of being considering the move to the AL Central.

 

D-Train's just not THAT good. However, he's a good #4 or 5, so you're right about that part. The Rogers part hurts you though.

Edited by Steve9347

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QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 04:36 PM)
Your argument lost a lot of steam with this one. Rogers' injury last year can easily be blamed on him being old, and he could easily suffer many injuries this year... counting on him now is pretty iffy.

 

Oh, and D-Train sucked balls in a horrible league in a horrible pitchers park. If playing for millions upon millions upon millions of dollars isn't enough for him, then I don't know what other motivation he needs. He burst onto the scene as a kid for a team that went on to win the World Series, and he's been living on that hype ever since. His park adjusted era in the NL is a whopping 4.17. Now, the park doesn't hurt him in Detroit, but I think that's a pretty good indication of the type of pitcher he can only HOPE of being considering the move to the AL Central.

 

D-Train's just not THAT good. However, he's a good #4 or 5, so you're right about that part. The Rogers part hurts you though.

So, 2005 was great for the Sox, but that doesn't mean you should be totally oblivious to everything else that happened that year.

 

And where are you getting that "park adjusted era"?

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Ok. Reword it, whatever. Willis should be an upgrade over the crap they had in 4/5 spot last season and Bonderman/Robertson should be better after down years last season. So 60% of the rotation should be improved.

 

i'd take andrew miller any day over dontrelle willis.

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Swish must bat 1st or 2nd to fully take advantage of what he brings to the table. possibly even third. i just wonder how well swisher will be able to do batting lead off. i'd rather keep cabrera in the 2 hole because he could be the best #2 hitter in baseball. atleast one of the best if not the best. where as he failed before in a lead off role so lets keep orlando in the 2 hole. to bat Swish lead off or not, that is the question. we really have no other option, except for cabrera, so i say do it! i'd rather have an OF of Quentin, Swisher, Dye than Owens starting so Swisher batting lead off looks like the viable option.

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QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 05:10 PM)
Swisher isn't a leadoff hitter. It would make tons more sense to bat Cabrera leadoff ahead of Swisher.

Cabrera, last couple seasons, puts up a .335-.345 OBP, steals 20-something bases, strikes out pretty rarely (~50k/season), and his numbers w/men on base say he is a very good situational hitter.

 

Swisher has had .372 and .381 OBP's the last couple years, though he lacks speed, strikes out a lot, and actually sees his numbers dip a bit with runners on. He'll be a serious power threat in the Cell, though.

 

Neither are ideal leadoff guys, but I could see arguments either way.

 

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Swisher would be the slowest leadoff hitter I've seen in recent memory. In a lineup without Owens, why on earth would you not lead Cabrera off and have Swisher bat second? It would make no sense whatsoever and it's not like anything is lost by having Swisher at the second spot in the order. This isn't like the 3rd and 4th spots in the order where there isn't much difference between which power hitter you have there.

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Swisher would be the slowest leadoff hitter I've seen in recent memory. In a lineup without Owens, why on earth would you not lead Cabrera off and have Swisher bat second? It would make no sense whatsoever and it's not like anything is lost by having Swisher at the second spot in the order. This isn't like the 3rd and 4th spots in the order where there isn't much difference between which power hitter you have there.

 

you are probably right. we'll see what Ozzie chooses to do. :ph34r:

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QUOTE(lostfan @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 05:22 PM)
Swisher would be the slowest leadoff hitter I've seen in recent memory. In a lineup without Owens, why on earth would you not lead Cabrera off and have Swisher bat second? It would make no sense whatsoever and it's not like anything is lost by having Swisher at the second spot in the order. This isn't like the 3rd and 4th spots in the order where there isn't much difference between which power hitter you have there.

Some folks feel that OBP is king when it comes to leadoff hitting. Depends on your perspective. Swisher provides power, but this lineup is already pretty well powered up in the middle.

 

Since everyone else is doing it, here would be my lineup...

 

Cabrera, SS

Swisher, CF

Thome, DH

Konerko, 1B

Dye, RF

Pierzynski, C

Fields, 3B

Quentin, LF

Richar, 2B

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I would be surprised if there is not another move to bring in a leadoff hitter. Who? Roberts, Crisp, Figgins, mystery man? Why? Swish is not a proven defensive CF, OCab would be a better 2 hitter, and Ozzie likes speed at the top. Just a gut feeling.

 

After reading about what he will bring personality wise and learning the details of his contract, I love the Swisher trade. I just see him as the future firstbaseman.

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QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 04:15 PM)
So, 2005 was great for the Sox, but that doesn't mean you should be totally oblivious to everything else that happened that year.

 

And where are you getting that "park adjusted era"?

Baseball Reference

Park Adjustments

 

These numbers are difficult to calculate and I would refer you to a copy of Total Baseball if you wish to recreate the park factor values.

 

The value indicate a number above 100 is a park good for hitters and below 100 is a park good for pitchers. The ERA+ and PRO+ values are adjusted to both the league average and the park the pitcher or batter played in.

 

The career totals are gathered by finding what a league average player would have done given the same playing time as the player in question and then summing these values up over the player's career. Given how I store the seasonal data (as an ER total not the league ERA) it is very easy to calculate. Similarly for PRO+ (league times on base and league total bases).

 

Note that the lg_ERA and lg_OPS values are for a league average player in that ballpark for single season data, and for a league average player with the same career path as the given player. This means that two players from the same league will have different values here if they played in different parks.

 

Link for more information

Edited by Steve9347

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QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 03:27 PM)
Some folks feel that OBP is king when it comes to leadoff hitting. Depends on your perspective. Swisher provides power, but this lineup is already pretty well powered up in the middle.

 

Since everyone else is doing it, here would be my lineup...

 

Cabrera, SS

Swisher, CF

Thome, DH

Konerko, 1B

Dye, RF

Pierzynski, C

Fields, 3B

Quentin, LF

Richar, 2B

The one thing I want to see this year is OBP in front of Thome and Konerko. That was the biggest thing missing the last 2 years, I'd say, with Podsednik struggling, Erstad not being good, Iguchi struggling, and Fields not exactly being an OBP machine. That's why I was big on Owens getting that .350 OBP when I thought he was the starter, because lower htan that and it would really hurt with this lineup. If you stick Cabrera and Swisher up there, you've almost guaranteed yourself an OBP improvement. I'm still a fan of that streak Cabrera had in the first part of the 06 season where he was on base in 61 consecutive games, and that wasn't evne in his best season.

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Swisher was joking around saying that he will have to hop on that treadmill every day to get his cardio refreshed if he is going to be the every day CF. I really think he'll play LF. I'm kind of hoping Owens does well in spring training so he can be the every day CF/ leadoff man. The only other guy out there that KW could possibly get is Crisp to leadoff.. If Owens had 30+ SBs in the limited amount of time he had last year i think he can be a nice suprise in 2008 if given the chance for a full season. I wouldnt be upset if we get Crisp also...

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