Jump to content
NCsoxfan

CREDE CREDE CREDE

Recommended Posts

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Mar 4, 2008 -> 04:26 AM)
I love the delicious irony of someone who is trying to move players under control for more than this year, for the sake of a player who is a FA and has boras as his agent.

 

Keeping thinking of that future.

 

 

Shall we trade for an injured player now or latter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(Adam G @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 03:46 PM)
I think they're pretty comparable offensively, with Ventura hitting for a little better average and Crede having a little more power. Defense, give me Crede.

 

Ventura could draw a walk too. In case you were wondering. His career OBP of .362 absolutely destroys Crede's .305. Ventura also had essentially the same career slugging percentage in a less watered down era. I'd argue Ventura had more power than Crede.

 

And you simply can't give defense to Crede, seeing as how Ventura had 6 gold gloves and Crede's gold glove shelf is collecting dust.

 

Ventura was one of the most underrated players on the Sox in the 90s; some people don't seem to realize how solid he really was. Crede really can't hold his jock strap.

 

Of course, Ventura doesn't have a ring...

 

QUOTE(elrockinMT @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 03:56 PM)
I do think it would be nice to keep options open for 2009 and beyond because I don't see the talent in our farm system being able to step up for awhile. We have tendd to strip our own system and if we let a talent like Crede and Fields both go we lose again. I like Konerko, Thome and others a lot, but if arguments are made Boorass clients then the same could be made about old age, injury and deterioating (sp) skills

 

The Sox aren't about to lose Fields any time soon; 2012 isn't exactly right around the corner or anything. They are about to lose Crede though.

 

I also enjoy the old age, injury, deteriorating skills argument in regards to Konerko, Thome, and "others".

 

Crede was injured almost all of last year, and spent the most days out of any Sox player on the DL...check.

Crede had the worst year of his career last year, in part because of injury...check.

Crede is only two years younger than Konerko...yep, old age is really hurting Konerko.

 

So, simply put, you can't make the Boras argument for older players, especially when they are still producing. As is, some of their replacements are already on the roster in the form of Swisher, Quentin, and Fields, and Konerko's young enough that he can stick around. The changing of the guard will start to happen with the departure of Crede this spring and will almost assuredly end when Dye and Thome hit free agency after next season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing that makes it close is you saying "in their prime." That can be made to read 2006 for joe and any one of a number of awesome years for Ventura. Ventura was the better defensive player, and much more reliable. He had a better eye and was a better baseball player. The only thing joe might have is more power, but I'm not even convinced that is true.

 

Robin's 1996 blankets joe's 2006 in every category including defense.

Edited by max power

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 10:41 AM)
Again, more Crede fanboys and their everquest to move everyone on the team around just to keep their player. Lets trade Konerko, Thome, Fields so we can keep a guy coming off injury who has Boras as his client. Makes sense.

 

 

don't you just love banging your head against the wall all the time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dang, I was away for awhile and didn't mean to offend for starting a thread that offered an alternative to trading Crede for nothing or sticking Fields back in AAA. I was merely trying to point out how both could be used and possibly help the team as well. For what its worth, I agree that Robin prior to ankle injury was by far the better player than Crede. Again, nothing against Crede but Robin was very good. Anyone remember Kevin Bell prior to his injury?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Overall, contracts and injuries aside, I'd rather have Ventura than Crede. I think Ventura is more valuable offensively, but I'd call their defense a draw.

 

But, it should be noted, I think we know very little of what "Crede in his prime" really is. Right now, there is no telling. It could be late 2005 and into 2006 Crede, or it could be 2004 and early 2005 Crede. Hard to say. Plus his back... I think we'll know in a few years what Crede really brings to the table as a hitter.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And before anyone jumps in with the clutch argument. Robin had 18 grand slams. And was a pretty damn clutch hitter himself.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 02:12 PM)
Crede is only two years younger than Konerko...yep, old age is really hurting Konerko.

Between the arthritic hip and the fact that his power output has declined by nearly 25% in the past 2 years, one could argue that you're seeing age hitting PK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 04:29 PM)
And before anyone jumps in with the clutch argument. Robin had 18 grand slams. And was a pretty damn clutch hitter himself.

 

Ventura is the better overall player and I'm a big fan of Crede. Again we cannot sign him because his agent will have him test free agency. That's not a knock on him. It's his right to test the market. But with a cheap alternative in Fields there's no need to spend the money on him. This team can put that money to better use in positions of need.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a bad situation for the Sox to be in. No matter what team wants/needs Crede, they all know that the Sox won't re-sign him. The best thing that can happen to the Sox would be for a big market team like the Mets, Red Sox or Yankees or Dodgers or someone like that can start a small bidding war, although it wouldn't be good business from the other side to jack up the price either. See: Johan Santana.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(WilliamTell @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 02:58 PM)
That should be enough time to get rumors going for him being traded to Japan for Kobayashi.

"Yoo got traded fer the hotdog eater. heehyuh heehyuh!"

 

God, Brett Myers is such a hick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(knightni @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 06:48 PM)
"Yoo got traded fer the hotdog eater. heehyuh heehyuh!"

 

God, Brett Myers is such a hick.

 

haha yeah.

 

I'd take Ventura over Crede. Ventura wasn't bad at the hot corner, overall I think he was a better hitter even though he had less power. But I'd like to see what he could do with The Cell being renovated, maybe those numbers would've increased. He was also a lefty and 18 Grand Slams is awesome, and who can forget that Grand Slam single he had with the Mets. Question. Did they count that as a Grand Slam or not, I can't remember but I want to say no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(WilliamTell @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 08:02 PM)
who can forget that Grand Slam single he had with the Mets. Question. Did they count that as a Grand Slam or not, I can't remember but I want to say no?

Nope. He never touched the bases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ventura was better than Crede at every facet of the game. It's a no brainer. The irony is how diametrically different the situations are... most Sox fans (including me) believe the Sox screwed Ventura...first with the White Flag trade right after he came back from that terrible injury...then by offering him a token contract that was never legit (those teams were cheap). I'm not even going to rehash the whole Crede surgery / Sox are screwed with low trade value and can't resign him thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ventura ended up getting a contract with the Mets that was bigger than Thomas' was at the time. How would THAT have set with the reigning MVP if Reinsdorf had re-signed Ventura for the Mets' contract price? They had Olmedo Saenz, Joe Crede and Carlos Lee at 3B in AA and AAA at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Between the arthritic hip and the fact that his power output has declined by nearly 25% in the past 2 years, one could argue that you're seeing age hitting PK.

What measurement of power are you using? In 2006 he set a career high in SLG% People were saying the same thing after the 2003 season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm going to start another Crede thread tonight

Come on Mod. Mega merge time! There's three on the first page in the trade winds dedicated to him!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 08:47 PM)
Come on Mod. Mega merge time! There's three on the first page in the trade winds dedicated to him!

:cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(knightni @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 08:42 PM)
Ventura ended up getting a contract with the Mets that was bigger than Thomas' was at the time. How would THAT have set with the reigning MVP if Reinsdorf had re-signed Ventura for the Mets' contract price? They had Olmedo Saenz, Joe Crede and Carlos Lee at 3B in AA and AAA at the time.

 

Good point - I admit to know remember the numbers but remembering that it was well below what he was expected to get on the market. As for the then minor leaguers, even then we knew Lee wouldn't be a major league 3B, and Crede was still years away (meaning I don't think it is comparable to the current Fields-Crede situation). Resigning Ventura would have avoided the Norton - Snopek era yet we might not have had the Milkman mini-era.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(Disco72 @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 08:57 PM)
Good point - I admit to know remember the numbers but remembering that it was well below what he was expected to get on the market. As for the then minor leaguers, even then we knew Lee wouldn't be a major league 3B, and Crede was still years away (meaning I don't think it is comparable to the current Fields-Crede situation). Resigning Ventura would have avoided the Norton - Snopek era yet we might not have had the Milkman mini-era.

Well, Comiskey after the first season was a ghost town if you remember. The Sox would win 85-90 games and average only 15,000 a game. Reinsdorf probably didn't see the sense of losing money on the deal. It didn't really work with Albert Belle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 04:39 PM)
Between the arthritic hip and the fact that his power output has declined by nearly 25% in the past 2 years, one could argue that you're seeing age hitting PK.

 

And back problems age Crede just as much. The fact that he's a worse hitter and that half of what he brings to the table is defense, which would be limited by a bad back may force him into retirement earlier than Konerko.

 

Konerko could be Eric Karros. Crede could be Ed Sprague Jr (Kalapse, once again, that is a very good comparison). Who would you rather have?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(Adam G @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 03:46 PM)
I think they're pretty comparable offensively, with Ventura hitting for a little better average and Crede having a little more power. Defense, give me Crede.

There is no better evidence about the legend of Joe Crede than this post right here. Crede isnt near the same class as Robin in any way, shape or form, yet you still take Crede, and you call them comparable. Wow.

 

 

Im not even going to do good research.

 

An outstanding performer on both offense and defense, he became only the fifth third baseman – joining Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Brooks Robinson and Mike Schmidt – to hit at least 250 home runs and win at least five Gold Glove Awards. He ranks 14th in major league history with 1887 games at third base, and his six career Gold Gloves place him behind only Robinson (16) and Schmidt (10) at his position. Baseball statistician and historian Bill James, in the 2001 revision of his Historical Baseball Abstract, chose Ventura as the greatest third baseman of the 1990s.

 

Is Crede even the best in his own division?

 

As a fielder, Ventura was among the premier players at his position, leading the American League four times each in double plays and total chances, three times in putouts and twice in assists; he also led the National League in assists, total chances and fielding percentage once each.

 

He also ranks 10th in career SLG for a 3B.

 

Robins LOWEST OBP in a full season was his rookie year at .324, LOWEST.

 

 

I just hope you are too young to remember Robin Ventura. Freaking Legend Of Joe Crede strikes again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
QUOTE(max power @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 04:19 PM)
The only thing that makes it close is you saying "in their prime." That can be made to read 2006 for joe and any one of a number of awesome years for Ventura. Ventura was the better defensive player, and much more reliable. He had a better eye and was a better baseball player. The only thing joe might have is more power, but I'm not even convinced that is true.

 

Robin's 1996 blankets joe's 2006 in every category including defense.

Joe Crede's best year and really only good year.

 

.283 .323 .506 30hr 90RBI

 

Robin Ventura's good years

 

1991 .284 .367 .506 23 hr 100rbi

1992 .282 .375 .442 16hr 93 rbi

1993 .262 .379 .433 22hr 94 rbi

1994 .282 .373 .459 18hr 78rbi (109 games)

1995 .295 .384 .498 26hr 93rbi

1996 .287 .368 .520 34hr 105rbi

1997 .262 .373 .426 (54 games)

1999 .301 .379 .529 32hr 120rbi

 

he continued to post more than 20hr each season until retirement and posted better than avg obp at .338-.368. And I still have no idea how Crede could have more power, Robin outslugged him over their careers and pretty much each season.

Edited by RockRaines

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×