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Controlled Chaos

Has the Internet taken some fun out of baseball?

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Fantastic post, CC, and a pretty good discussion, too. I'm now thinking about going to some games with fun in mind -- not Sox games, mind you, but some other games. Just watch baseball for the sake of watching baseball.

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I didn't realize the internet created OPS and RISP stats. Really a misleading title.

 

For historical purposes, OPS was popularized in 1984 by John Thorn and Pete Palmer. Just how popular was the internet in 1984?

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QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Feb 28, 2008 -> 02:45 AM)
I didn't enjoy the game of baseball nearly as much when I obsessed about stats and tried to make myself feel better at someone else's expense. Once I got past that, the game of baseball has become a lot more fun again.

 

What the f*** are you talking about?

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QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Mar 1, 2008 -> 04:33 PM)
I didn't realize the internet created OPS and RISP stats. Really a misleading title.

 

For historical purposes, OPS was popularized in 1984 by John Thorn and Pete Palmer. Just how popular was the internet in 1984?

PM Al Gore for details.

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Thanks to the Internet I dont have to read biased papers and uniformed sports reporters on the news

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QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Mar 1, 2008 -> 08:57 PM)
Thanks to the Internet I dont have to read biased papers and uniformed sports reporters on the news

That's what cable TV is for.

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QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Mar 1, 2008 -> 10:13 PM)
Cable TV has ESPN maybe the most biased of all

I thought you were being sarcastic. :ph34r:

 

The internet has a plethora of overblown, biased, and rumormongering writers.

 

Even more than newpapers or tv.

 

(Hi Cheat! :P)

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QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Mar 1, 2008 -> 04:33 PM)
I didn't realize the internet created OPS and RISP stats. Really a misleading title.

 

For historical purposes, OPS was popularized in 1984 by John Thorn and Pete Palmer. Just how popular was the internet in 1984?

I didn't realize the title said the internet created OPS and RISP stats. Really a misleading post.

 

 

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QUOTE(Controlled Chaos @ Mar 4, 2008 -> 11:12 AM)
I didn't realize the title said the internet created OPS and RISP stats. Really a misleading post.

 

Well, 90% of the posts missed your original point about the internet and baseball, especially the great point about allowing us to make baseball a job. it somehow got sidetracked into the "stats" argument and the "internet + baseball = bad" argument, neither of which were inherent in the original post. The internet has improved some things, but it clearly has made other parts less enjoyable.

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QUOTE(Disco72 @ Mar 4, 2008 -> 02:46 PM)
Well, 90% of the posts missed your original point about the internet and baseball, especially the great point about allowing us to make baseball a job. it somehow got sidetracked into the "stats" argument and the "internet + baseball = bad" argument, neither of which were inherent in the original post. The internet has improved some things, but it clearly has made other parts less enjoyable.

All I have to say is Thank You. I surely thought I was going mad.

 

 

 

 

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I didn't realize the title said the internet created OPS and RISP stats. Really a misleading post.

That's what a good portion of your first post was about which led to most of the following posts being about stats, and when people said things like "I like the internet because it helps me listen to minor league games or get schedules" you said they were missing the point about the internet.

 

I really question your point about fans having more info than GM's 20 years ago, and would like to know how you know that.

 

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QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Mar 4, 2008 -> 03:21 PM)
That's what a good portion of your first post was about which led to most of the following posts being about stats, and when people said things like "I like the internet because it helps me listen to minor league games or get schedules" you said they were missing the point about the internet.

 

I really question your point about fans having more info than GM's 20 years ago, and would like to know how you know that.

No, it really wasn't what a good portion of my post was about. It's a good portion of the replies to my post, but I think the point in my article is pretty clear.

 

And I can't say for sure if fans now have more info than GM's did 20 years ago. I didn't go and poll all the GM's from yesteryear to see what they knew and didn't know. I also don't know for sure if the acroynyms in baseball realy do rival that of the US Gov, but I still used the line in my article.

 

I'll just live with the fact that some here got what I wrote and some here didn't.

 

 

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CC , some of the stat geeks wield the knowledge they possess like a club, ready to hammer any small mistake statistically over your head . It's not about having fun it's about being right and making sure everyone knows it. They nitpick anything you say missing your entire point.

 

When I joined Soxtalk I thought it would be like a community of like minded individuals. Instead it's like nitpickers central who ridicule any minor error and resort to name calling if you can't spend the better part of your day looking up stats to support your opinion. There are many great posters who are intelligent but there is a very vocal minority who are rude. The object is not to use the power of knowledge to inform or teach but instead to "own" or destroy the opposition.

 

It's my opinion that many potential posters are scared off by these seek and destroy tactics. It's too bad a small minority has to ruin it for the fans who don't overly rely on stats and love the game for what it represented to us in our youth.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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QUOTE(CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 02:40 AM)
When I joined Soxtalk I thought it would be like a community of like minded individuals. Instead it's like nitpickers central who ridicule any minor error and resort to name calling if you can't spend the better part of your day looking up stats to support your opinion. There are many great posters who are intelligent but there is a very vocal minority who are rude. The object is not to use the power of knowledge to inform or teach but instead to "own" or destroy the opposition.

 

Oh yes, wouldn't that be wonderful -- everyone praising and loving everything Kenny and Ozzie do. Oooh, I get chills just thinking about it. Kenny just signed Darin Erstad? Oh goodie! He only gave him $750K? He should've been MORE generous! Yay yay, everybody's happy!

 

----------------------

 

I think a good part of this debate is stubbornness. I'm certainly glad I'm not as closed-minded as some people, but that plays a big part in this debate that always rears its head. It's tough to admit the way you've thought about the game for ____ years is partially or completely wrong. After all, you've been using stats like RBIs and batting average and pitcher wins/losses since you were a kid -- it just can't be wrong!

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QUOTE(CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Mar 6, 2008 -> 09:40 PM)
When I joined Soxtalk I thought it would be like a community of like minded individuals. Instead it's like nitpickers central who ridicule any minor error and resort to name calling if you can't spend the better part of your day looking up stats to support your opinion.

 

Everyone has their own differing opinion on every subject and, as Americans/Canadians/etc, they have a right to state that opinion in a public forum. Some people argue their opinion better than others. Some resort to nitpicking and name calling out of frustration; because, while they disagree with your opinion, they have no way to refute it as it is your opinion.

 

How can you go somewhere on the internet and automatically expect other people, who are their own "free and independent thinker," to agree with your mindset immediatey just because they like the same sports team as you do?

 

Also, when it comes to requesting stats to back up opinions, why shouldn't people expect other posters to back up their opinions with a shred of fact? We expect all professionals in our everyday lives to do it (media, politicians, lawyers, doctors, teachers, the announcers on tv doing the ball game.) Again, I don't mean to belabor the point here, but, why should you expect to be any different?

 

Internet message board posting is akin to being on a debate team. If you are arguing, make sure that you are coherant and know from what you speak of. Nobody likes the guy who "talks out of his backside." I'm not saying you do, I'm just stating as to why people "nitpick", because they care about knowing the facts.

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QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Mar 6, 2008 -> 09:16 PM)
Oh yes, wouldn't that be wonderful -- everyone praising and loving everything Kenny and Ozzie do. Oooh, I get chills just thinking about it. Kenny just signed Darin Erstad? Oh goodie! He only gave him $750K? He should've been MORE generous! Yay yay, everybody's happy!

 

----------------------

 

I think a good part of this debate is stubbornness. I'm certainly glad I'm not as closed-minded as some people, but that plays a big part in this debate that always rears its head. It's tough to admit the way you've thought about the game for ____ years is partially or completely wrong. After all, you've been using stats like RBIs and batting average and pitcher wins/losses since you were a kid -- it just can't be wrong!

 

:lol:

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QUOTE(knightni @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 04:29 AM)
Everyone has their own differing opinion on every subject and, as Americans/Canadians/etc, they have a right to state that opinion in a public forum. Some people argue their opinion better than others. Some resort to nitpicking and name calling out of frustration; because, while they disagree with your opinion, they have no way to refute it as it is your opinion.

 

How can you go somewhere on the internet and automatically expect other people, who are their own "free and independent thinker," to agree with your mindset immediatey just because they like the same sports team as you do?

 

Also, when it comes to requesting stats to back up opinions, why shouldn't people expect other posters to back up their opinions with a shred of fact? We expect all professionals in our everyday lives to do it (media, politicians, lawyers, doctors, teachers, the announcers on tv doing the ball game.) Again, I don't mean to belabor the point here, but, why should you expect to be any different?

 

Internet message board posting is akin to being on a debate team. If you are arguing, make sure that you are coherant and know from what you speak of. Nobody likes the guy who "talks out of his backside." I'm not saying you do, I'm just stating as to why people "nitpick", because they care about knowing the facts.

i don't post much but i'm a regular lurker, and i think it's more an issue of tone. i agree with you generally, but i also agree with cali's sentiment that, basically, a small but vocal minority of peeps on soxtalk are f***ing assholes when they correct (or attempt to correct) other peeps' baseball misconceptions. (and 90% of their posts are correcting other peeps' misconceptions.) the default tone for that minority is sarcasm. often i agree with the arguments of the people being dickheads, but, man, it's exhausting to read.

Edited by False Alarm

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QUOTE(False Alarm @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 11:20 AM)
i don't post much but i'm a regular lurker, and i think it's more an issue of tone. i agree with you generally, but i also agree with cali's sentiment that, basically, a small but vocal minority of peeps on soxtalk are f***ing assholes when they correct (or attempt to correct) other peeps' baseball misconceptions. (and 90% of their posts are correcting other peeps' misconceptions.) the default tone for that minority is sarcasm. often i agree with the arguments of the people being dickheads, but, man, it's exhausting to read.

 

It's tone and it's also respect. There's an inherent lack of respect or just basic manners on message boards compared to real life. I'm not some old fart that gets offended easily either.

 

As santo_dorf stated in his post in this thread...."I didn't realize the internet created OPS and RISP stats. Really a misleading title." Of course, nothing like that was in my title and I never even said that in my post, but for some reason he wanted to make a smart ass comment, so he did.

 

Same with CaliSoxFan's post in a different thread. In a post where the real point was... Let's not be quick to judge and watch it play out, cause it's fun to watch the competition; He mentioned "Quentin seems to be a guy who crowds the plate and gets hurt because of it" That turned into smart ass post #1 from witesoxfan "How do you hurt your shoulder so badly that it needs surgery by crowding the plate?" Which in turn Cali had to respond to and say he never said that. Then smart ass post #2 santo_dorf has to come in and write "Who said that? :unsure:" with CaliSoxFan's quote....which hilariously enough, still doesn't say anything about Quentins shoulder, but CaliSoxFan has to respond to that...then come's smart ass post #3 by Kalapse "He tweaked his hamstring rounding first base last season. Perhaps that was brought on by a HBP. :huh"

So you can see why some people just feel it's not worth it to post some things. It's not that they can't handle the BS, it's just many feel...why bother. Yeah CaliSoxFan said Quentin gets hurt from crowding the plate. No he doesn't have exact dates of the injuries or what they were, or if they even truly existed, but is it such a stretch to believe?? Someone who set a minor-league record by getting hit by a pitch 43 times in 2004? I think it's ok for him to assume for his arguements sake, that Quentin most likely missed some time here and there. Just as I think it's ok for me to say "Fans have more info today than GM's did 20 years ago" without polling said GM's. Some here apparently feel I need to do so before writing that, but I don't.

 

I don't mind certain corrections on things...In fact, they're usually pretty enlightening, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. Sometimes, there's even a "I can let that one go" way. Not that many people here have ever heard of that.

 

Whatever though, I don't think anyone loses any sleep over any of it...it's just sometimes things aren't necessary. I believe in respecting everyone until they are either your friends, in which case you can f*** around and disrespect them all you want or they are your enemies, in which case your disrespect is justified. I respect everyone on this site. I don't know you all well enough not too. Nobody is saying everyone should have the same opinion; or that we shouldn't criticize Kenny or Ozzie; or that we shouldn't disagree and debate; or that if someone comes in here talking about Uribe being the greatest shortstop to ever play the game, someone shouldn't pull up some stats and say Are you nuckin futs?? We should do all that. Just try to add a little tact to to it. If you're posting directly to someone try to pretend that person is right in front of you. You may walk away and say...that dude doesn't know anything, but you wouldn't go grab a mic and call him out and embarass him in front of everyone. Most people are very respectful in person. The goal isn't to "own" the person you're talking to...sometimes that gets lost and twisted when typing on a keyboard.

Edited by Controlled Chaos

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Iam really feeling you Chaos but the majority of this board are going to dismiss your points and just say deal with it and continue to be rectums.In turn making any newcomers shy away from posting on Soxtalk.

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QUOTE(Controlled Chaos @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 02:35 PM)
Same with CaliSoxFan's post in a different thread. In a post where the real point was... Let's not be quick to judge and watch it play out, cause it's fun to watch the competition; He mentioned "Quentin seems to be a guy who crowds the plate and gets hurt because of it" That turned into smart ass post #1 from witesoxfan "How do you hurt your shoulder so badly that it needs surgery by crowding the plate?" Which in turn Cali had to respond to and say he never said that. Then smart ass post #2 santo_dorf has to come in and write "Who said that? :unsure:" with CaliSoxFan's quote....which hilariously enough, still doesn't say anything about Quentins shoulder, but CaliSoxFan has to respond to that...then come's smart ass post #3 by Kalapse "He tweaked his hamstring rounding first base last season. Perhaps that was brought on by a HBP. :huh"

So you can see why some people just feel it's not worth it to post some things. It's not that they can't handle the BS, it's just many feel...why bother. Yeah CaliSoxFan said Quentin gets hurt from crowding the plate. No he doesn't have exact dates of the injuries or what they were, or if they even truly existed, but is it such a stretch to believe?? Someone who set a minor-league record by getting hit by a pitch 43 times in 2004? I think it's ok for him to assume for his arguements sake, that Quentin most likely missed some time here and there.

So as not to get a "smart ass" label, let me be perfectly direct. I think you are completely wrong about this exchange. First, wite's reply isn't "smart ass", at all. He knew that Quentin's only missed significant time with the shoulder injury and asked as plainly as possible how that could be linked to crowding the plate. If Cali only meant that he probably missed a day or two here and there, but wasn't sure, he could have said that in reply, and that would have been the end of it. Second, no, I don't think it's okay to assume something just because it's plausible. I mean, I can imagine that someone might miss time from being often hit by a pitch, but once the statement's been made about someone in particular, it seems reasonable and interesting to ask whether or not it's true.

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QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Mar 7, 2008 -> 04:02 PM)
So as not to get a "smart ass" label, let me be perfectly direct. I think you are completely wrong about this exchange. First, wite's reply isn't "smart ass", at all. He knew that Quentin's only missed significant time with the shoulder injury and asked as plainly as possible how that could be linked to crowding the plate. If Cali only meant that he probably missed a day or two here and there, but wasn't sure, he could have said that in reply, and that would have been the end of it. Second, no, I don't think it's okay to assume something just because it's plausible. I mean, I can imagine that someone might miss time from being often hit by a pitch, but once the statement's been made about someone in particular, it seems reasonable and interesting to ask whether or not it's true.

Well, I don't want to keep speaking for either person, Cali or wite, but wite's first comment seemed a bit "smart ass" to me. I could be wrong. I think Cali took it the same way because his response was a bit chippy.

 

I do commend wite for his second comment below. It was spot on and if he just wrote that in the first place, I don't think we're even having this convo.

 

Quentin's had like one major injury in his career, and it was his shoulder. I don't think he's been injured on a hit by pitch, but I may be wrong.

 

 

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The first comment was half smart-assery and half inquiry based. But I try to be a likable smart-ass, if anything.

 

Except when we talk about Joe Crede.... :ph34r: lol

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