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caulfield12

Alexei on move to SS, Viciedo...

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 03:53 PM)
The right way to do this is to treat it like any other signing out of a latin american country. Give him a good sized signing bonus based on what you think his performance is, then put him in your system and try to develop him from there. That way, you still get the arbitration years on him and you still get 2 picks if an when he becomes good and walks as a FA.

 

You don't think his agent will want a major league contract with a waiver similar to what the Japanese players usually get that allows them out of that process? His agent isn't going to allow him to be under the control of a team for 6 years.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 05:55 AM)
You don't think his agent will want a major league contract with a waiver similar to what the Japanese players usually get that allows them out of that process? His agent isn't going to allow him to be under the control of a team for 6 years.

He's 19. If he's under control for 6 years, he hits FA when hes' 25. In other words, you do a chunk of his development in AA and maybe AAA depending on how long he takes, and you're either trading him or letting him walk for nothing because you have to cut him and you don't even get draft picks.

 

I haven't yet seen a 19 year old who's worth that. Maybe he is. But even the most highly, highly, highly touted 19 year olds wind up taking a couple years to grow in to their body and their "Potential". If someone's going to pay for his development and then let him walk for nothing, let that team take that gamble. It doesn't make sense for a team like the White Sox to spend 2-3 years developing a kid for a lot of money only to have him walk after they get barely a season out of him.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 11:44 AM)
He's 19. If he's under control for 6 years, he hits FA when hes' 25. In other words, you do a chunk of his development in AA and maybe AAA depending on how long he takes, and you're either trading him or letting him walk for nothing because you have to cut him and you don't even get draft picks.

 

I haven't yet seen a 19 year old who's worth that. Maybe he is. But even the most highly, highly, highly touted 19 year olds wind up taking a couple years to grow in to their body and their "Potential". If someone's going to pay for his development and then let him walk for nothing, let that team take that gamble. It doesn't make sense for a team like the White Sox to spend 2-3 years developing a kid for a lot of money only to have him walk after they get barely a season out of him.

 

If you think you are going to lose an all-star 2-3 years down the road because you won't give him a major league contract today, would you? Odds are pretty good someone is going to give him a major league deal, and that is agent is requiring one, along with the waiver of their rights to arbitration years.

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After seeing what Alexei did in 2008, nothing would suprise me with how Viciedo would do in 2009.

 

I think it maybe best at least for the Sox to start him in AAA for the season, and give Fields the 3rd base job (if he was signed). And then if Fields is struggling, or Viciedo is absolutely raking in Charlotte, then you could make a move there.

 

Long - term, I think he's going to be a DH in the AL though.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 12:02 PM)
If you think you are going to lose an all-star 2-3 years down the road because you won't give him a major league contract today, would you? Odds are pretty good someone is going to give him a major league deal, and that is agent is requiring one, along with the waiver of their rights to arbitration years.

 

And according to this, that is what it is going to take to get Viciendo

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-v...o&type=lgns

 

Viciedo is a delightful defector

 

At the gate for American flight 1901 on Sunday night, Jaime Torres looked around and saw a dozen familiar faces. All were headed from Miami to the Dominican Republic for the same reason.

 

To see the kid Torres believes will be the next great Cuban player.

 

From the time Dayan Viciedo hit his teenage years, hyperbole has surrounded him, so excuse Torres, his agent, for engaging in a little more. Such embroidery weaves itself into the tale of the 19-year-old third baseman, who joined Cubaâ€s professional league at 15, made the All-Star team at 16 and was designated heir to Omar Linares, the greatest Cuban ballplayer of the last 25 years.

 

“I saw Linares at his peak, and itâ€s a shame that a player of his caliber didnâ€t have the opportunity to play in the U.S.,” Torres said. “When I first heard about Dayan and the comparisons to Linares, I wanted to know if it was true.”

 

Linares never left the island, neither the riches nor adulation of Major League Baseball enough to tempt him. Few of Cubaâ€s best players do defect, leaving so many overhyped – Andy Morales and Adrian Hernandez and Maels Rodriguez and Alay Soler – that the busts nearly outweigh the successes.

 

Though brothers Livan and Orlando Hernandez have thrived in the major leagues, and Jose Contreras won a championship, and Alexei Ramirez and Yunel Escobar look like All-Stars in the offing, post-Revolution Cuba hasnâ€t produced a single superstar in more than 40 years, with Hall of Famer Tony Perez, Luis Tiant and Tony Oliva all leaving around the time Fidel Castro overthrew Fulgencio Batista.

 

Whether Viciedo can fulfill such expectations elicits an array of opinions from talent evaluators. One National League scout based in the Dominican said Viciedo “has star written all over him.” An American League scout, attending Torres†workout Wednesday in the Dominican town of Boca Chica, said: “Out of shape. But it looks like he can hit.” And an NL scouting director couldnâ€t get over Viciedoâ€s burgeoning belly – heâ€s gone from around 200 pounds as a 16-year-old to more than 230 – and said: “Whatâ€s he going to look like when heâ€s 21? And 25?”

 

Either way, Viciedo piqued enough curiosity that nearly every major league team sent a representative to see workouts Wednesday at the Chicago White Soxâ€s complex and Thursday at the New York Yankeesâ€.

 

Once MLB declared last Friday that Viciedo would become a free agent – a determination made because he had established residency in the Dominican Republic and was not subject to the amateur draft, further muddying already murky rules on how Cuban amateurism is handled – Torres†plan nearly six months in the making was ready to go.

 

Viciedo defected with his family in May after one previous unsuccessful attempt, starting a tortuous journey, first to Mexico, then to the United States, where he trained in Miami with Torres, and ultimately to the Dominican Republic, where he hoped to inspire a bidding war.

 

Already, Torres said, teams have offered Viciedo a major-league contract, which includes a spot on the 40-man roster. Torres said he expects his client to compete for a starting job in spring training, whether at his natural position or in the outfield.

 

What sort of contract teams will offer Viciedo is unclear, though there are a number of starting points. The contemporary to whom he is most often compared, San Francisco Giants prospect and Dominican product Angel Villalona, signed at 16 for $2.1 million two years ago. The last Cuban defector to score a big-league contract, Ramirez, also a Torres client, got a four-year, $4.75 million deal. And the richest went to Contreras, who received $32 million over four years.

 

One general manager speculated Viciedoâ€s contract will exceed Ramirezâ€s in total value and could approach eight figures, though one scout said itâ€s unlikely because it would be overpaying Viciedo during his pre-arbitration years.

 

“Itâ€s not only the most money,” Torres said. “Itâ€s the best opportunity. His preference is third base. Clubs want him for right field. And that option is open. If the contract is enticing enough, heâ€d play right field.”

 

Wherever Viciedo ends up, eyes will follow, wondering who heâ€s going to be. Which, actually, is the beauty of his youth. Viciedo can control whether he balloons like Livan Hernandez or sheds weight like Felix Hernandez, whether he is just “easygoing” as the Latin scout put it or “might be lazy” as another said, whether he regressed after hitting .337 as a 16-year-old or, like Torres said, “sometimes his mind was drifting, looking out to Florida.”

 

Perhaps the changing face of Cuba, with Fidel Castro perpetually ailing, will affect the United States†policy toward the country and free its baseball players to arrive in a grand wave. The idea of a Cuban superstar would seem so trivial, what with the smokescreen of whoâ€s really best – who Cuba keeps off its national team for fear of defection – finally lifted.

 

Until then, though, Viciedo is another in a long line of hyped before harrumphed. Maybe just once the hyperbole will turn out to be the truth.

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How close are we to signing this kid? We should have an edge on other teams seeing as he played with Alexei in Cuba, right?

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QUOTE (IrishSoxFan @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 04:38 PM)
How close are we to signing this kid? We should have an edge on other teams seeing as he played with Alexei in Cuba, right?

The Sox also have some nice, useable cash in hand after the Swisher deal.

 

I expect we'll have signed him by tomorrow afternoon.

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Thanks for the reply, I'm actually really excited about this kid.

 

He's essentially a Sox right? There's no other teams that are in the hunt that could take him away from us tommorrow? I don't see how that'd be possible as we just freed all that cap from todays trade.

 

And if(once) we do sign him, do you think he'll be the starting 3B man from day one, or we'll stash him in the minors for a little seasoning?

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QUOTE (IrishSoxFan @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 02:44 PM)
And if(once) we do sign him, do you think he'll be the starting 3B man from day one, or we'll stash him in the minors for a little seasoning?

For a 19 year old, I don't care how talented he is...I would expect him to spend at least one, if not 2 full seasons in the minors. If he spends less than that there you consider yourself lucky, but the human body just doesn't develop that fast.

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QUOTE (IrishSoxFan @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 05:44 PM)
He's essentially a Sox right? There's no other teams that are in the hunt that could take him away from us tommorrow? I don't see how that'd be possible as we just freed all that cap from todays trade.

 

And if(once) we do sign him, do you think he'll be the starting 3B man from day one, or we'll stash him in the minors for a little seasoning?

Traditionally, speaking the Yankees, Braves and Rays are as interested in Cuban ball-players as we are so don't write this one off. That being said, we definitley have the inside track to the kid who will most likley end up in the minors for a year or two.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 04:50 PM)
For a 19 year old, I don't care how talented he is...I would expect him to spend at least one, if not 2 full seasons in the minors. If he spends less than that there you consider yourself lucky, but the human body just doesn't develop that fast.

That's what I was thinking too, 19 is just to young. But it always makes you think of Miguel Cabrera in 2003. I would prefer him in AAA than to have him start from day 1. I think him and Alexei will be really fun to watch, and potentially open up the Cuban pipeline even more.

Edited by IrishSoxFan

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QUOTE (IrishSoxFan @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 05:54 PM)
That's what I was thinking too, 19 is just to young. But it always makes you think of Miguel Cabrera in 2003. I would prefer him in AAA than to have him start from day 1. I think him and Alexei will be really fun to watch, and potentially open up the Cuban pipeline even more.

Triple A is no place for the kid to develop. Assuming he has a decent workout with the team he'll be in AA.

Edited by Thunderbolt

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I'm quite interested to hear what happened in his workout (which was scheduled for today).

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I do not like the fact that he is resembling Matt Stairs or Prince Fielder already. He needs to get his butt in shape.

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Well if this guy is supposed to be MLB ready and play 3B next season, KW just said Betimet and Fields are his thirdbasemen. They said some teams were looking at him as a RF, and Dye is supposedly being shopped. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............................

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QUOTE (Cubano @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 07:46 PM)
I do not like the fact that he is resembling Matt Stairs or Prince Fielder already. He needs to get his butt in shape.

His agent said he was in great shape. Although looking at his agent, Refrigerator Perry looks like a marathon runner.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 07:49 PM)
Well if this guy is supposed to be MLB ready and play 3B next season, KW just said Betimet and Fields are his thirdbasemen. They said some teams were looking at him as a RF, and Dye is supposedly being shopped. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............................

 

 

Yeah, that's one of the intriguing things about this kid, he's SUPPOSED to have a great arm. Maybe Cubano has more insight, but some of the reports have said he was a pitcher previously and threw upper 80's/low 90's but has given that up a long time ago.

 

That said, in current condition, Jermaine Dye would look like Roberto Clemente compared to this kid lumbering around out there.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 09:46 PM)
Yeah, that's one of the intriguing things about this kid, he's SUPPOSED to have a great arm. Maybe Cubano has more insight, but some of the reports have said he was a pitcher previously and threw upper 80's/low 90's but has given that up a long time ago.

 

That said, in current condition, Jermaine Dye would look like Roberto Clemente compared to this kid lumbering around out there.

Assuming that Dye gets moved, and we commit to this kid. We'll See Q in right, and this kid in LF.

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Some of you are jumping the gun here. It's hardly a foregone conclusion that he will sign with the Sox.

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QUOTE (YASNY @ Nov 14, 2008 -> 03:11 AM)
Some of you are jumping the gun here. It's hardly a foregone conclusion that he will sign with the Sox.

 

Thank you

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Even at 19 he goes to ST and competes for the spot along with Fields and Betemit, or whoever the candidates are for OF at the time, similar to the path the Ramirez had, and if he is good enough he gets a spot. I dont think he should be arbitrarily be sent to the minors just because of his age.

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QUOTE (YASNY @ Nov 14, 2008 -> 01:11 AM)
Some of you are jumping the gun here. It's hardly a foregone conclusion that he will sign with the Sox.

This is 1000% true. Until it happens I don't count on anything.

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KW just said Betimet and Fields are his thirdbasemen.

Today they're his thirdbasemen, tomorrow one of them could be somebody else's.

 

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Nov 14, 2008 -> 08:34 AM)
Even at 19 he goes to ST and competes for the spot along with Fields and Betemit, or whoever the candidates are for OF at the time, similar to the path the Ramirez had, and if he is good enough he gets a spot. I dont think he should be arbitrarily be sent to the minors just because of his age.

There is no way Fields gets the ax on a starting position again this year. Either he starts with us or he gets traded. With guys like Getz, Beckham and maybe Viciedo waiting in the wings, it may make sense to trade him for the right price.

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QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Nov 14, 2008 -> 01:26 PM)
There is no way Fields gets the ax on a starting position again this year. Either he starts with us or he gets traded. With guys like Getz, Beckham and maybe Viciedo waiting in the wings, it may make sense to trade him for the right price.

IMO, after an injury marred season where he couldn't even crack our roster...his value has gone down enough that it makes little sense to trade him right now. Unless a really good option comes along, give him a shot at 3rd, at worst in a platoon, and see if he can give us something like the 25 home runs he gave us 2 years ago if he spends next season healthy. Then he'll actually have a lot more usefulness in a trade.

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