Is Sammy a Hall of Famer???

[WCSox]

From what I have heard, Canseco admitted he has no evidence at all to accuse Sosa of being on roids, while with others he has accused he had direct information or 2nd hand information that he considered reliable. Im sorry, I dont make someone guilty because Canseco thinks he does without any sources or knowledge of seeing it himself.

 

Wow, your standard for proof sure has changed...

 

McGwire isnt on trial to go to jail, this is about getting into the HoF, so whether its hearsay or not, its enough.

 

So which is it? Is trained speculation and/or hearsay on the part of Canseco enough for the HOF test, or do we need hearsay and/or speculation from a reliable second-hand source as well?

 

Canseco never had direct OR second-hand information on Giambi 'roiding either, yet he still correctly called him on it. It's not exactly a shocker that a guy who used roids for 20 or so years would be able to accurately identify fellow users in his profession.

Edited June 5, 2009 by WCSox

[Jordan4life_2007]

I say put him in. I say put Clemens, Bonds, McGwire in as well. To single certain guys out because it was "obvious" they were juicing or because they've broken records is silly. Steroids was a league-wide phenomenon during that time. Just about everybody was doing something illegal during that time. And as Manny Ramirez has proven, we still have guys that are cheating. All you can do is clean the s*** up and move on.

[WCSox]

I say put him in. I say put Clemens, Bonds, McGwire in as well. To single certain guys out because it was "obvious" they were juicing or because they've broken records is silly. Steroids was a league-wide phenomenon during that time. Just about everybody was doing something illegal during that time. And as Manny Ramirez has proven, we still have guys that are cheating. All you can do is clean the s*** up and move on.

 

That's not a bad idea, but too many of the voters are old-school enough that they'll never forgive those guys for tainting the statistical history of the game.

 

[GoodAsGould]

Wow, your standard for proof sure has changed...

 

 

 

So which is it? Is trained speculation and/or hearsay on the part of Canseco enough for the HOF test, or do we need hearsay and/or speculation from a reliable second-hand source as well?

 

Canseco never had direct OR second-hand information on Giambi 'roiding either, yet he still correctly called him on it. It's not exactly a shocker that a guy who used roids for 20 or so years would be able to accurately identify fellow users in his profession.

 

Ok, how about stop twisting my posts. Canseco was teammates with both Giambi/McGwire so he had more inside knowledge of what those two were doing, He was never a teammate with Sosa and said himself he has no evidence in the least to say for sure Sosa did anything, while he made it clear with no doubt that Giambi/McGwire were both roiders. Which is why unless a former teammate or a test comes up, I cant convict Sosa.

[CanOfCorn]

I say put him in. I say put Clemens, Bonds, McGwire in as well. To single certain guys out because it was "obvious" they were juicing or because they've broken records is silly. Steroids was a league-wide phenomenon during that time. Just about everybody was doing something illegal during that time. And as Manny Ramirez has proven, we still have guys that are cheating. All you can do is clean the s*** up and move on.

 

That's not a bad idea, but too many of the voters are old-school enough that they'll never forgive those guys for tainting the statistical history of the game.

 

The more people get caught or "out-ed," the more likely the chance all of these guys will get voted in. This is going to be the Steroid Era...the footing was essentially equal. What is going to suck is for players like Frank Thomas and Jim Thome (who's "farm strong"), who have a legitimate beef (I hope). Those who did it "naturally" get screwed.

[RockRaines]

From what I have heard, Canseco admitted he has no evidence at all to accuse Sosa of being on roids, while with others he has accused he had direct information or 2nd hand information that he considered reliable. Im sorry, I dont make someone guilty because Canseco thinks he does without any sources or knowledge of seeing it himself.

How about your own eyeballs? Do you trust those?

[RockRaines]

Someone getting bigger isn't evidence, there are ways to bulk up naturally.... And yes, I do think he most likely used roids of some sorts, but if all my proof is he got bigger that most certainly isn't enough.

its not like he gained some muscle, the guy got HUGE. His head grew 5 sizes. Come on. The proof is in reality that he is one of the most obvious juicers in baseball.

[Texsox]

IMNSHO

 

Bonds was having a potential HoF career when, again, IMHO, he started the roids. He would not have been a HoF had he stopped at that point, so I am hesitant to call him a HoFer before steroids.

 

I'd prefer to see all the names mentioned not in the hall and guys like Baines in.

[Dick Allen]

How about your own eyeballs? Do you trust those?

Frank Thomas put on about 45-50 lbs from 1990-1993. Michael Jordan put on about 40 lbs of lean muscle. Check out how much weight Thome put on. Its not impossible that Sosa is clean.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Dick Allen

[Jordan4life_2007]

IMNSHO

 

Bonds was having a potential HoF career when, again, IMHO, he started the roids. He would not have been a HoF had he stopped at that point, so I am hesitant to call him a HoFer before steroids.

 

I'd prefer to see all the names mentioned not in the hall and guys like Baines in.

 

Huh? So when do you believe he started? The general consensus was that he started around 2000. Unless you believe he started way before that, I have no idea how could say he wasn't a HOF even before 'roids.

[justBLAZE]

Listen to Hawk and all the old players talk about corking bats. Its been quite common and they all laugh about it. Personally, I think Sosa juiced, but if they are going to hold suspicion against him instead of proof, I find it very sad. Bonds and Palmiero tested positive. McGwire used creatine and probably steroids, but he didn't hit 600 homers.

 

Is creatine a banned substance in the MLB ?

[RockRaines]

Frank Thomas put on about 45-50 lbs from 1990-1993. Michael Jordan put on about 40 lbs of lean muscle. Check out how much weight Thome put on. Its not impossible that Sosa is clean.

Come on, are you really making the comparison to a guy like Frank Thomas? Come on, I understand its fun to be on the other side of the concensus and all, but Sammy is a roider, and he definately dabbled in HGH to make his head as big as it got. He and McGuire may have brought baseball back, but they both did it while completely blown up on PED's.

[Balta1701]

Is creatine a banned substance in the MLB ?

It is now. It was not in 1998.

[WCSox]

IMNSHO

 

Bonds was having a potential HoF career when, again, IMHO, he started the roids. He would not have been a HoF had he stopped at that point, so I am hesitant to call him a HoFer before steroids.

 

I strongly disagree. If you believe Jeff Pearlman, Bonds started on the juice after the '98 season (which sounds reasonable to me, given his size and numbers at the time). Up to that point, he had 411 HRs, 445 SBs, 3 MVPs, and 8 Gold Gloves. He could've been struck by lighting after his first injection and he would've been a lead-pipe lock for Cooperstown.

 

I'd prefer to see all the names mentioned not in the hall and guys like Baines in.

 

I love Harold as well, but he doesn't have the numbers or a period of dominance to merit induction.

 

Come on, are you really making the comparison to a guy like Frank Thomas? Come on, I understand its fun to be on the other side of the concensus and all, but Sammy is a roider, and he definately dabbled in HGH to make his head as big as it got.

 

Those of us who were following baseball in the late '80s remember Sammy having Alexei Ramirez's frame. The guy was a freaking toothpick with a jheri curl. I remember one scout commenting that he looked like he was malnourished when he came up with the Rangers. By the late '90s, he looked like Hulk Hogan and was hitting 550-foot home runs. That doesn't happen naturally.

 

Agreed that the Frank comparison is way off base. Frank was a tight end in college and had significant muscle mass when he entered the league. Granted, he did bulk up, but he also put on quite a bit of fat. There aren't very many flabby PED users around the league.

 

[Texsox]

IMHO baseball should celebrate the very best men to have played the game. That should encompass more than just the numbers. Those players that played with class, sportsmanship, and honesty, are a better representation than those that cheated. To value tainted numbers over sportsmanship and honesty are not pillars that greatness can be built on. If baseball, or any sport, was based on cheating, lies, and dishonesty, it would not survive ten years, let alone 100 years.

 

We send the wrong message on what we value in a society when we honor men who cheated. Sammy, Bonds, Mark, and others may have brought great numbers to baseball, but they took away a lot also. They took the all American game, and pissed on it. That stain doesn't go away overnight.

 

Guys like Baines left the game a lot better for them having played. Using Baines as an example, and admittedly he does not have the numbers, how sad is it that a few steroid enhanced years and he would have had the numbers. What are we saying about America's pasttime when cheating pays off? Sportsmanship and class should be a part of the HoF voting, and I sure as hell would prefer thirty years from now kids reading about Baines and Thomas than Sosa, Mark, Bonds, Clemens and the rest. Those guys are not who make baseball a great sport.

[Reddy]

Career marks of .273 average, 2408 hits, 370 doubles, 609 homers, 1667 RBI, .534 SLG, .344 OBP, .878 OPS. 3 seasons of 60+ homers, the only man ever to do that, including 243 homers in a 4 year span. He has never been formally accused of steroids with any evidence, though the accusations have haunted him for years.

 

Is that enough to get him in, or is the cloud of suspicion too great over Sosa to vote him into the Hall of Fame?

honestly, look at those numbers aside from the HRs and they're not exactly hall-worthy. .878 OPS? from an OF? i think it'd be interesting to see, if you took his 3 60 HR years and reverted them to an average Sosa season, where his career numbers would lie...

 

.344 OBP? HoF? Come on. He'd be on the cusp for sure, but I don't think those numbers warrant it.

[WCSox]

IMHO baseball should celebrate the very best men to have played the game. That should encompass more than just the numbers. Those players that played with class, sportsmanship, and honesty, are a better representation than those that cheated. To value tainted numbers over sportsmanship and honesty are not pillars that greatness can be built on. If baseball, or any sport, was based on cheating, lies, and dishonesty, it would not survive ten years, let alone 100 years.

 

We send the wrong message on what we value in a society when we honor men who cheated. Sammy, Bonds, Mark, and others may have brought great numbers to baseball, but they took away a lot also. They took the all American game, and pissed on it. That stain doesn't go away overnight.

 

It's difficult to argue with that, but the precedent has already been set with Ty Cobb in the HOF. If there was ever a player whose behavior should exclude him from Cooperstown, it's Cobb. Frankly, I'd rather my kids looked up to a 'roider like McGwire than a racist thug with an out-of-control anger problem.

 

And where does the character analysis stop? What about the large fraction of players that cheat on their wives? Should they be banned from Cooperstown as well? What about guys like Mickey Mantle, who routinely treated fans like crap and lead less-than-dignified lives off of the field?

 

I'm all for recognizing really good players who lead positive lifestyles (Baines, Ventura, Moyer, etc.). But, unfortunately, the people who are the best of the best in any profession tend to not be the most honorable people in the world.

 

In contrast to your opinion, I'd rather have guys like McGwire and Sosa get inducted into Coopertown than to automatically blackball anybody who was suspected of using PEDs. And the reason is that the owners and player's union were complicit in this scandal. I would rather that MLB itself be shamed for knowingly allowing this to happen AND FACILITATING IT, than to make McGwire and Sosa the fall guys and to sweep it all under the rug. The PED era isn't just about the 89 rogue players named in the Mitchell Report and the others outed by other means. The problem is deeply entrenched, spanning from the Commissioner's Office to the top of the MLBPA. All of Major League Baseball pissed on the game.

 

Edited June 6, 2009 by WCSox

[santo=dorf]

I guess I'm in the minority then, because on June 5th, 2009, Sammy Sosa is a Hall of Famer. Asdie from being at the steroid hearings on Capitol Hill, he was never linked to the juice. Was he on it? Probably, but untill it has an actual link to him, there really isn't anything to go off of.

 

The numbers he put up during his peak were simply incredible.

 

Oh, and before anyone brings up the cork as a reason to keep him out of the hall, I don't see how that is any different than Gaylord Perry being in the HOF after doctoring the baseball every start with his spitball...

The three biggest ties Sosa has had to steroids:

1. His best friend is Manny Alexander. The same Alexander who loaned his Benz full of syringes and steroids to a bat boy in 2000.

2. "losing" $20k cash in a brown bag in Venezuela

3. His testimony on capitol hill where he was hiding behind his lawyer and supposed lack of the english language. He was smart enough to say he never did any "illegal steroids." Notice the keyword "illegal." If I go to Amsterdam to smoke pot, but I'm clean here, does that mean I've never done any illegal drugs?

 

His numbers spiked for a short period late in his career, his figure changed dramatically, and he was really, really edgy when he was ever confronted about using PED's.

 

the numbers are there, but the HOF also looks at character. His career OBP isn't very good for a career slugging OF and his OPS is below .900. It's clear he was only focused on swinging for the fences each time at the plate. Good riddance.

[WCSox]

the numbers are there, but the HOF also looks at character. His career OBP isn't very good for a career slugging OF and his OPS is below .900. It's clear he was only focused on swinging for the fences each time at the plate. Good riddance.

 

Heck, I'd say that the numbers are borderline. His BA was a lowly .273, his OBP was only .344, he had a respectable-but-not-great 2,400 hits, and he was never that great in the field. He's basically Mark McGwire with an MVP. I'm not sure that's enough to merit induction, even without the cloud of steroid suspicion around him.

 

[Texsox]

It's difficult to argue with that, but the precedent has already been set with Ty Cobb in the HOF. If there was ever a player whose behavior should exclude him from Cooperstown, it's Cobb. Frankly, I'd rather my kids looked up to a 'roider like McGwire than a racist thug with an out-of-control anger problem.

 

And where does the character analysis stop? What about the large fraction of players that cheat on their wives? Should they be banned from Cooperstown as well? What about guys like Mickey Mantle, who routinely treated fans like crap and lead less-than-dignified lives off of the field?

 

I'm all for recognizing really good players who lead positive lifestyles (Baines, Ventura, Moyer, etc.). But, unfortunately, the people who are the best of the best in any profession tend to not be the most honorable people in the world.

 

In contrast to your opinion, I'd rather have guys like McGwire and Sosa get inducted into Coopertown than to automatically blackball anybody who was suspected of using PEDs. And the reason is that the owners and player's union were complicit in this scandal. I would rather that MLB itself be shamed for knowingly allowing this to happen AND FACILITATING IT, than to make McGwire and Sosa the fall guys and to sweep it all under the rug. The PED era isn't just about the 89 rogue players named in the Mitchell Report and the others outed by other means. The problem is deeply entrenched, spanning from the Commissioner's Office to the top of the MLBPA. All of Major League Baseball pissed on the game.

 

I agree there are some characters already in the hall that are not the best people, but there are so many ways to say two wrongs don't make a right. As a society we have stopped wrongs and adjusted our sails. Should character take an average player and place him in the hall? No. But I believe the character of some borderline players should be weighed more, positively and negatively.

 

I like your point that these guys were cheating, it seems most everyone knew it, and everyone, *including players* were quiet. I believe I would also be against an automatic kind of disqualification, but I'd like to see character be more of the equation. Baseball, as America's past time deserves it.

[clyons]

Those of us who were following baseball in the late '80s remember Sammy having Alexei Ramirez's frame. The guy was a freaking toothpick with a jheri curl. I remember one scout commenting that he looked like he was malnourished when he came up with the Rangers. By the late '90s, he looked like Hulk Hogan and was hitting 550-foot home runs. That doesn't happen naturally.

 

 

The three biggest ties Sosa has had to steroids:

1. His best friend is Manny Alexander. The same Alexander who loaned his Benz full of syringes and steroids to a bat boy in 2000.

2. "losing" $20k cash in a brown bag in Venezuela

3. His testimony on capitol hill where he was hiding behind his lawyer and supposed lack of the english language. He was smart enough to say he never did any "illegal steroids." Notice the keyword "illegal." If I go to Amsterdam to smoke pot, but I'm clean here, does that mean I've never done any illegal drugs?

 

All this.

 

I don't need to see flakes fall from the sky to know that its been snowing. Its enough for me to see the white ground.

[WCSox]

I agree there are some characters already in the hall that are not the best people, but there are so many ways to say two wrongs don't make a right. As a society we have stopped wrongs and adjusted our sails. Should character take an average player and place him in the hall? No. But I believe the character of some borderline players should be weighed more, positively and negatively.

 

I agree, and that's why I think that guys like Thome and Biggio should get in. I'd also like to see Bagwell considered (although I don't think that he has the numbers).

 

Also agreed that players who were either caught using PEDs or strongly suspected to the point where it's obvious (Sosa) should be held to a higher standard for induction. Since Sosa and McGwire were nothing more than prolific HR hitters (couldn't hit for average, couldn't play defense), hitting in the neighborhood of 600 HRs shouldn't make either a lock, IMO. Both were essentially slightly better incarnations of Canseco, and I seem them on the outside looking in. On the other hand, Bonds was such an incredible player that even his character issues and PED use can't overshadow how good he was off the juice (prior to 1998), IMO.

 

[Princess Dye]

God I hope not.

 

Who's he going up against? Will voters actually vote for him saying there was no hard evidence against him?

 

 

 

I would think when he's up, bad press will surround his eligibility and perhaps drive votes away. No one recently link to roids is in, right?

[Marky Mark]

For the most part he's rowing the same boat as McGwire, who did not get in on first ballot. So I will say...nope. But I do believe he will get in the hall eventually.

[Balta1701]

I believe the ballots will be issued in English, and no one who would vote for him will be willing to admit in public that they actually speak English, thus he will not get in.