caulfield12 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Tonight's game is a perfect example of why I feel the closer's role is highly overrated in today's game. Clayton Richard, 116 pitches, 6 baserunners over 8 innings. When you are cruising like that, the extra pitches won't take a toll on your body. This 100 pitch thing and 120 maximum idea is ridiculous. There's absolutely NO science behind pitch count limits...ZERO. The pitch count has been passed off as science for a number of years now, but in reality it means nothing. But...because Richard was approaching 120, and it was a "save situation" ('cause remember, it's not about actually winning, it's about padding a closer's stats) we take Richard out of a game he is completely dominating. What a bunch of crap! Every offense in the league would have been begging for the starter to be removed from that game. When an offense is struggling, they search for ANYTHING to mix things up. Bringing in another pitcher is just the ticket for their revival. It happens all the time. Think about this: If Richard had been left in the game for the ninth inning and blew the lead, who would have been under the gun? of course Ozzie would have because he went against the grain of closing! But guess who's locker they are in front of right now? Jenks... asking "why didn't you do your job?" Welcome to pass the buck 101, otherwise known as baseball today. Exhibit 2.... Bobby Howry Keith Foulke Shingo Takatsu Dustin Hermanson Bobby Jenks All of them "low paid" closers until Jenks this season...the only "elite" closer we ponied up money and talent for this decade is Billy "JAILBAIT" Koch. We know how that move turned out for KW (although it did bring us Cotts at least). We have to trade Jenks while we can still get a return in talent and avoid paying him $8 million and up (2nd behind Papelbon in his arbitration class). Edited July 22, 2009 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Maybe it was because I've seen Bobby struggle through each of his past few outings, but deep down I knew the game would be blown as soon as I saw him starting the ninth. I had a bad feeling about it. Richard pitched a truly great game, and I think he could have pitched the ninth. I understand pitch counts and whatnot, but I surprised he pitched the eighth. I figured why not let him throw another 10-15 pitches and get a CG. Oh well. On a side note, maybe they should send Richard out for every start after telling him that there is a plane gassed up at Midway ready to take him to Charlotte if he doesn't pitch well. He obviously pitches better when under that type of pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 BearSox to thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristofer Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 the thing is, we don't know if he was feeling really tired after the 8th, or if his location was way off (from what coop or ozzie saw). we just don't have enough information to gauge this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (kristofer @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 07:57 AM) the thing is, we don't know if he was feeling really tired after the 8th, or if his location was way off (from what coop or ozzie saw). we just don't have enough information to gauge this. Neither did Black Jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (YASNY @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 09:00 AM) Neither did Black Jack. Yeah, I like Black Jack, but I think his opinion carries about as much weight as yours or mine. I criticize a lot of Ozzie's in-game decisions but not this one. In that situation, Ozzie knows best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:03 AM) Yeah, I like Black Jack, but I think his opinion carries about as much weight as yours or mine. I criticize a lot of Ozzie's in-game decisions but not this one. In that situation, Ozzie knows best. I like McDowell, too. Always have. Especially after he flipped off the Yankee fans. But I think Ozzie saw this as a chance to tell Richard "Job well done, son." and it was the right move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (YASNY @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 09:07 AM) I like McDowell, too. Always have. Especially after he flipped off the Yankee fans. But I think Ozzie saw this as a chance to tell Richard "Job well done, son." and it was the right move. Agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Ozzie is not going to like this, I am pretty sure of that. He was not happy with the Bacon criticism either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 The Sox lost because the White Sox didnt handle Becham properly so Jenks ability yo pitch was hurt. It's a fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigEdWalsh Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 01:26 AM) Tonight's game is a perfect example of why I feel the closer's role is highly overrated in today's game. Clayton Richard, 116 pitches, 6 baserunners over 8 innings. When you are cruising like that, the extra pitches won't take a toll on your body. This 100 pitch thing and 120 maximum idea is ridiculous. There's absolutely NO science behind pitch count limits...ZERO. The pitch count has been passed off as science for a number of years now, but in reality it means nothing. But...because Richard was approaching 120, and it was a "save situation" ('cause remember, it's not about actually winning, it's about padding a closer's stats) we take Richard out of a game he is completely dominating. What a bunch of crap! Every offense in the league would have been begging for the starter to be removed from that game. When an offense is struggling, they search for ANYTHING to mix things up. Bringing in another pitcher is just the ticket for their revival. It happens all the time. I agree wholeheartedly, 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I'm surprised we're not seeing more Wise/BA comments to blame this loss on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 The thing is, Ozzie just never wants a starter who has pitched that well to be in a position to lose it. Maybe he could have started him off with one batter in the 9th to see if he could get him, and pullled him with a walk or single...but Jenks is SUPPOSEDLY/STATISTICALLY one of the Top 5-10 closers in baseball, so that's what his job is, precisely those situations. Every manager would have done the same thing....McDowell is just showing his starting pitcher's bias a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I agree it was the right move but man I don't feel comfortable from the 7th inning on unless we're up 4 or more. This bullpen seems to be completely off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigEdWalsh Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:04 AM) Maybe he could have started him off with one batter in the 9th to see if he could get him, and pullled him with a walk or single...but Jenks is SUPPOSEDLY/STATISTICALLY one of the Top 5-10 closers in baseball, so that's what his job is, precisely those situations. Exactly. Call me old-fashioned because I know I am, but that's how it would have been done back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 I was thinking he might pull Jenks and bring in Thornton against either Crawford or Pena....to try to reverse the momentum and get a strikeout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (YASNY @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 06:07 AM) I like McDowell, too. Always have. Especially after he flipped off the Yankee fans. But I think Ozzie saw this as a chance to tell Richard "Job well done, son." and it was the right move. Agreed. I wouldn't have gone ballistic on Ozzie if he had let Richard pitch the 9th (although I would've disagreed). But I trust that Ozzie knows his pitchers better than Black Jack. For all we know, Richard may have indicated to Ozzie that his arm was fatigued when he returned to the dugout. For all of the well-deserved criticism of Ozzie's handling of Anderson, his handling of young pitchers has been second-to-none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 The big thing McDowell is forgetting is that Richard isn't conditioned to go 120+ pitches. Its just like anything, where your body has to be trained for it. If you are trained to run 5 miles, running a half marathon isn't going to happen. You have to ramp up to get there. Going to Jenks was the only intelligent move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) My bigger issue was still not bringing in Thornton. Even if you are the strongest Bobby Jenks believer, he had struggled in 4 straight previous outings, Tampa Bay had shown for the previous 8 innings they couldn't touch a fastball with good velocity from a left handed pitcher, and even if you take all of those things out of the equation, Bobby had just thrown 28 extremely high stress pitches the night before and fatigue was a concern (and perhaps appeared to be a factor in his stuff last night). I'm not calling for a change in closers, I just thought Thornton was worth a shot last night all things considered. But at the end of the day, if Bobby said he was ready and was put in, he still has to close the game, so I can't really blame Ozzie. One thing I know though is I would not have left Clayton in after 116 pitches unless he said he felt absolutely fantastic, and we don't know what he said in terms of how he felt. Edited July 22, 2009 by whitesoxfan101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwolf68 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 The problem isn't that Ozzie went to the closer, but that he went to a struggling closer. Jenks has been garbage lately and in a 1 run game against a high octane team like the Rays, he was ripe for the picking. He got lucky the previous night. That's my only beef...I'd like to see Jenks work in some 'non save' situations to get his act together, situations where he can't blow the season for this team. Last night's loss was a bad loss, it sapped momentum heading into a brutal stretch and it sent a game back to Detroilet. Just because Jenks 'is the closer' doesn't mean he has to pitch in every freaking 9th inning situation, ESPECIALLY when he is barely major league calibur at this point. Jenks has been AWFUL lately, no two ways about it, he fooking sucks and when you keep running out bad pitchers you WILL GET burned. I think Jenks will get it turned around, but at this point im no so sure...not only does he not look physically overpowering anymore, but he is not showing ANY mental toughness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 08:47 AM) Ozzie is not going to like this, I am pretty sure of that. He was not happy with the Bacon criticism either You noticed how after that blog was made, Slayer has only missed what... 1 game? He won't be nearly as dicked around. Ozzie might not like it, and even Hawk can add his 2 cents, but the organization takes it to heart. I don't agree with BlackJack on this one though. Edited July 22, 2009 by SoxAce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 01:24 PM) You noticed how after that blog was made, Slayer has only missed what... 1 game? He won't be nearly as dicked around. Ozzie might not like it, and even Hawk can add his 2 cents, but the organization takes it to heart. I don't agree with BlackJack on this one though. Beckham forced the issue by being on fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 22, 2009 -> 12:25 PM) Beckham forced the issue by being on fire. Well yea, being a stud helps, I won't even imagine if he was hitting like .240 what Ozzie would be doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I was surprised he came back out in the 8th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsgdf_2 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Under Ozzie and Cooper - the Sox have had an amazing run of healthy pitchers. They've also rarely allowed their starters to go much past 115-120. McDowell can say what he wants in his blog about the science of pitch counts - but when it's your ass that's responsible for winning games AND keeping guys healthy to win more games, then you're going to keep doing what you've been doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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