kitekrazy Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 9, 2009 -> 03:35 PM) "Proven closers" are overrated Really? How many are there and how often have they switched teams? I think the Cubs have bought into that belief. The Twins and Yankees haven't. I would say Kenny hasn't either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Oct 9, 2009 -> 10:12 PM) Really? How many are there and how often have they switched teams? I think the Cubs have bought into that belief. The Twins and Yankees haven't. I would say Kenny hasn't either. There are a few elite closers, but you can name them on one hand. There are a bunch of other guys that post mid-to-high 3 eras and accumulate saves because that's what happens when you come into the 9th inning with the lead. Outside of the elite few, I would be in favor of trading closers like the A's have done, taking advantage of the ridiculous mystique placed upon them by the rest of baseball. In my opinion, they aren't even utilized correctly by the vast majority of mlb managers. Either that, or mlb managers have caught on but the pay structure is antiquated. In my mind, your "closer" should not come in only in the 9th inning (and sometimes the 8th), but rather in the most critical point of the game - the most high stress situation where the starting pitcher is not involved. Do you not want to use your best pitcher for the most critical juncture of the game? Why save him for the 9th, only to put in someone worse who might blow the chance to even use your best pitcher with the lead in the first place? It makes absolutely no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son of a rude Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 You have to wonder if they will try to trade AJ. I love AJ as much as everybody else and think he is great for the organization, but trading him could get some decent return and it would free up space to sign somebody like nick johnson. I guess it would depend if the organization is sold on Flowers and if they think he could start next year. I know AJ has a partial no trade clause, but i'm not sure what teams it blocks him from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (son of a rude @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 12:08 PM) You have to wonder if they will try to trade AJ. I love AJ as much as everybody else and think he is great for the organization, but trading him could get some decent return and it would free up space to sign somebody like nick johnson. I guess it would depend if the organization is sold on Flowers and if they think he could start next year. I know AJ has a partial no trade clause, but i'm not sure what teams it blocks him from. I'd think that A.J. is less tradeable than the average position player. Part of his value is his relationship with the pitching staff. If you deal him to another team, he'll be out the door as a free agent by the time that he and his new staff become comfortable with one another. Plus, the Sox are absolutely desperate for offense right now, and A.J. has become better with the bat over the past couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son of a rude Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 I'd think that A.J. is less tradeable than the average position player. Part of his value is his relationship with the pitching staff. If you deal him to another team, he'll be out the door as a free agent by the time that he and his new staff become comfortable with one another. Plus, the Sox are absolutely desperate for offense right now, and A.J. has become better with the bat over the past couple of years. Why is that? You would have to think that teams would like having a durable catcher who bats .300 and doesn't let anything get by him. He isn't too expensive either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Trading AJ would set this team back several wins and they need to be picking up wins not discarding them. I heard today that Abreu is about to sign an extension with the Angels. While a nice hitter, he is getting older and can't play or at least shouldn't play defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son of a rude Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Trading AJ would set this team back several wins and they need to be picking up wins not discarding them. I heard today that Abreu is about to sign an extension with the Angels. While a nice hitter, he is getting older and can't play or at least shouldn't play defense. You never know. It would allow us to sign somebody like Nick Johnson for DH. I'm pretty sure he could replace AJ's production. Plus, if Flowers has a good year, it would make us even better. It would all depend on what kind of year Flowers has. He has the potential to be much better than AJ. He basically put up a 1.000 OPS in AA. I still look back at his 1.443 OPS in the AFL a few years ago and get hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (son of a rude @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 02:38 PM) You never know. It would allow us to sign somebody like Nick Johnson for DH. I'm pretty sure he could replace AJ's production. Plus, if Flowers has a good year, it would make us even better. It would all depend on what kind of year Flowers has. He has the potential to be much better than AJ. He basically put up a 1.000 OPS in AA. I still look back at his 1.443 OPS in the AFL a few years ago and get hard. Just what the Sox need more question marks. Put a rookie behind the plate, have him call pitches (because the bench does not with the White Sox) and tell him they need him to hit. Then spend $5-6 million on a guy who everyone know will get hurt. AA and the big leagues is a big difference. Let Flowers work his way into playing, don't throw the kitchen sink at him right away. He's really still a baby and he has some more growing pains he will have to work through. Just say no to Nick Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 12:57 PM) Just what the Sox need more question marks. Put a rookie behind the plate, have him call pitches (because the bench does not with the White Sox) and tell him they need him to hit. Then spend $5-6 million on a guy who everyone know will get hurt. AA and the big leagues is a big difference. Let Flowers work his way into playing, don't throw the kitchen sink at him right away. He's really still a baby and he has some more growing pains he will have to work through. Just say no to Nick Johnson. Agreed that A.J. is infinitely more valuable to the Sox than Nick Johnson would be. I'd be surprised if Johnson lasted 100 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son of a rude Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) I guess i like risk taking in baseball you guys then. I would love to see him keep doing it. We could probably at leasst get some sort of decent relief pitchers for AJ. The probability of Johnson getting hurt at DH is less than it normally would be. Flowers has potential, but i agree he would probably have worse offense year than AJ. Johnson + Flowers + whatever we could snag with AJ > AJ in my opinion. I would rather Kenny take the risk. If he does, chances are we either narrowly make the playoffs and get eliminated first round, or have a great chance at winning it all. Trading AJ and signing johnson wouldn't hinder us for the future either. AJ is probably gone after this year regardless. If it were possible, i would like to see how Flowers can handle the rotation in spring training before we trade AJ. That would be the biggest concern i have. Edited October 10, 2009 by son of a rude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (son of a rude @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 03:24 PM) I guess i like risk taking in baseball you guys then. I would love to see him keep doing it. We could probably at leasst get some sort of decent relief pitchers for AJ. The probability of Johnson getting hurt at DH is less than it normally would be. Flowers has potential, but i agree he would probably have worse offense year than AJ. Johnson + Flowers + whatever we could snag with AJ > AJ in my opinion. I would rather Kenny take the risk. If he does, chances are we either narrowly make the playoffs and get eliminated first round, or have a great chance at winning it all. Trading AJ and signing johnson wouldn't hinder us for the future either. AJ is probably gone after this year regardless. If it were possible, i would like to see how Flowers can handle the rotation in spring training before we trade AJ. That would be the biggest concern i have. So you are A. Going to base everything off of spring training performance and B. Make spring traing as awkward as possilble for everyone involved. Do you act like AJ is the #1 catcher, because if you do, Flowers isn't going to provide you any answers, or do you say Flowers is the starter and AJ is the back-up? That has disaster all over it, not even considering teams would be less inclined to give up anything too valuable for a C making $6 million who the Sox don't intend to play much. The White Sox are going to have to keep AJ and they are going to have to find a couple of hitters, and they are going to have to find a way to fix the bullpen. That is what will make them solid. For some reason, it wouldn't shock me if they traded a starter for some pieces. They have Hudson in the wings. Floyd, Danks and Buerhle all are worth some significant talent coming back. The way they have been babying Buerhle the last couple of years(I know he's still getting 200+ innings) it has to make you wonder if they think he is about ready to fade, plus he gets $14 million a year and Ozzie made it a point that he may be the #4 guy next year. It may be a PR nightmare but baseball genius to move him out and fill a few other spots. At some point next season, AJP and Buerhle become 5/10 men. If the Sox re-up with Dye, something nobody mentions, he will have full no trade rights. That's another reason to color him gone. Edited October 10, 2009 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxPride56 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Lets trade one of the guys that hit the ball last year...awesome idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son of a rude Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Lets trade one of the guys that hit the ball last year...awesome idea Ignoring the benefits of the trade is cool. It was just an idea anyway. I am perfectly happy with AJ staying, I love how he handles the staff and all. I just think the reward could be pretty good if we did it. It really is a big risk though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (son of a rude @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 02:08 PM) You have to wonder if they will try to trade AJ. I love AJ as much as everybody else and think he is great for the organization, but trading him could get some decent return and it would free up space to sign somebody like nick johnson. I guess it would depend if the organization is sold on Flowers and if they think he could start next year. I know AJ has a partial no trade clause, but i'm not sure what teams it blocks him from. I've commented on this before. I would love the idea, LOVE to trade A.J. just because his value will not get any higher, and he probably won't duplicate those numbers again. But with that being said, you CAN NOT deal him. If we had Joe Mauer waiting in the wings, then that's a different issue, but your going to be depending on Flowers, a rookie (no disrespect to Tyler but he is no Joe Mauer) to pick up the slack and then some (handling pitchers, calling games, hitting, etc..) I just think that's too much to ask a rookie to take over, especially one who isn't a cant miss as say.. a Matt Wieters. (though Baltimore isn't competing right now) Tyler may be a better hitter (more power) in the future, but he isn't as good as A.J. is right now. Edited October 10, 2009 by SoxAce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son of a rude Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 btw, here is an interesting article somebody showed me about how a catcher effects a pitcher's ERA. Kind of long, but a good read. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1489 I think Flowers would be able to at least match AJ's OPS this year. I am confident that he would put up a better OBP. I'd say his slugging would be similar, but his batting average would be a bit less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Jenks to StL for Ankiel? Ankiel is lefty power who has a monster arm and can play all fields. He's "under the radar" because he had a poor 2009. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (knightni @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 04:54 PM) Jenks to StL for Ankiel? Ankiel is lefty power who has a monster arm and can play all fields. He's "under the radar" because he had a poor 2009. Thoughts? He's also a free agent, a Boras client and he sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 06:02 PM) He's also a free agent and he sucks. Oh, a free agent. He sucks as much as Quentin did pre-2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (knightni @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 05:06 PM) Oh, a free agent. He sucks as much as Quentin did pre-2008. He's also 30 and an outed HGH user. Your comparison to Quentin is a confusing one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 06:07 PM) Your comparison to Quentin is a confusing one. He had similar stats and hitting results (low average, power potential). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (knightni @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 05:10 PM) He had similar stats and hitting results (low average, power potential). Much different times in their careers and much different circumstances behind the low output, they're also very different kinds of hitters. Ankiel's potential is no where near that of Quentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 05:12 PM) Much different times in their careers and much different circumstances behind the low output, they're also very different kinds of hitters. Ankiel's potential is no where near that of Quentin. ^^^^^^^^^ Ankiel is a nice story despite the HGH, but his potential as a pitcher blows his potential as a hitter through the roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Ankiel spent his early years pitching. I doubt that he has many more "miles" on him at 30 that Quentin has at 26. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 QUOTE (son of a rude @ Oct 10, 2009 -> 08:24 PM) I guess i like risk taking in baseball you guys then. I would love to see him keep doing it. We could probably at leasst get some sort of decent relief pitchers for AJ. The probability of Johnson getting hurt at DH is less than it normally would be. Flowers has potential, but i agree he would probably have worse offense year than AJ. Johnson + Flowers + whatever we could snag with AJ > AJ in my opinion. I would rather Kenny take the risk. If he does, chances are we either narrowly make the playoffs and get eliminated first round, or have a great chance at winning it all. Trading AJ and signing johnson wouldn't hinder us for the future either. AJ is probably gone after this year regardless. If it were possible, i would like to see how Flowers can handle the rotation in spring training before we trade AJ. That would be the biggest concern i have. I made the thread a bit back about this possiblity. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74797 My personal opinion, is AJ's value would never be higher via trade so the sox would have to look into it, esp. if Flowers is ready to play everyday as a C. If the sox want to go safe, trading AJ wouldn't be in the discussion. Playing it safe may help the sox get into the playoffs in 2010. But looking how stacked teams like the Yankees and Angels are, the sox won't sniff the World Series without a major upgrade in talent at multiple positions--something that can only be accomplished by trading guys with value to other teams. the sox farm system isn't all that deep at the top levels. Guys like Alexei and AJ have a lot of value. One team that could use AJ is the Rays--which has some young, major league ready talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 The Yankees, etc., may be stacked with talent, but you put us in a best of 5/best of 7 series against any team in the league, if our starting pitchers are healthy, we can hang with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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