Tigers Sign Damon - 1 yr, 8 mil; NTC

[chetkincaid]

Just trying to spark some baseball conversation... I'm sick of hearing about football and the Super Bowl (BTW - give me a World Series Game 7 over the Super Bowl anyday). What do you guys think? Are we really in trouble because of Orlando Hudson and the twinks? I'm still holding out hope for Damon or someone else to help us score some runs...

[ThunderBolt]

As it stands, the Twins are the best team in the division. At least, on paper and through projections. Damon would help us close the gap, maybe even push us over the top.

[Balta1701]

Are we in trouble? Yes, we certainly could be. The Twins have a better offense on paper than us, a better bullpen on paper than us, and a better defense on paper than us. The Sox have better starting pitching on paper than the Twins.

 

Would signing Damon change that? Well, it wouldn't change the bullpen, it would probably make the defense worse if anything. Would it be an upgrade with the bats? Yes. How much of an upgrade? That, I don't know. While he's still a good player, Damon last year put up career numbers in a ballpark almost perfectly tailored to his skill set, and he's still going to be a 36 year old this year. His speed isn't much to write home about any more.

 

Is he an upgrade over Kotsay against RHP? Last year he put up an .889 OPS against them, so probably, although Kotsay put up solid numbers in his 2 month stint with the Sox. Is he an upgrade over Jones against LHP? Last year, he put up a .776 OPS against LHP, so probably not.

 

Signing Damon would be, IMO, a small to moderate improvement with the bats. Is it a game-changer? No. Is the Twins signing Hudson a game-changer? No. One line drive off a pitcher's elbow or an odd step by Mauer running to 1b and the season totally changes.

 

You're sick of talking football, I'm sick of being angry about our DH situation, so I'm just going to live with it and hope either Jones and Kotsay step up big time or KW can make a move midseason to fill that hole.

[scenario]

The Twins acquiring Hudson is not the problem. (We were targeted for 2nd by most analysts before they acquired him.)

 

Ozzie's insistence that rotating a series of sub-standard hitters through the DH is a good idea... and Kenny's willingness to indulge that delusion... is the problem.

 

Would Damon be a good fix for that problem? Probably.

 

 

[longshot7]

People are overreacting to this move. Hudson is a good player, but he's not an elite 2b anymore. I mean, this is the guy who got benched in the 2nd half last year for Ronnie Belliard. He's not Chase Utley.

[bschmaranz]

People are overreacting to this move. Hudson is a good player, but he's not an elite 2b anymore. I mean, this is the guy who got benched in the 2nd half last year for Ronnie Belliard. He's not Chase Utley.

 

That's how I feel about it too. I like Hudson but he doesn't turn them into a powerhouse by any means.

[ThunderBolt]

People are overreacting to this move. Hudson is a good player, but he's not an elite 2b anymore. I mean, this is the guy who got benched in the 2nd half last year for Ronnie Belliard. He's not Chase Utley.

Please compare the White Sox and the Twins respective offseasons and tell me who has taken the more proactive approach to making their team better. We're not in the position as White Sox fans to write off moves that make the Twins better. We finished in 3rd place last year.

[Balta1701]

People are overreacting to this move. Hudson is a good player, but he's not an elite 2b anymore. I mean, this is the guy who got benched in the 2nd half last year for Ronnie Belliard. He's not Chase Utley.

Wasn't he also hurting for most of the 2nd half?

[dmbjeff]

That's how I feel about it too. I like Hudson but he doesn't turn them into a powerhouse by any means.

 

No, but he just makes them better, period. Any positive move is a good move. Their defense has improved a great deal not to mention he has a solid bat.

[daggins]

Really? The only position I see that they upgraded defensively is SS. They actually downgraded their outfield defense by trading Gomez. I think the Sox have better outfield D and comparable to slightly inferior infield D. I also don't see their pen as being much better than the Sox.

 

Definitely the team to beat so far, but lets not act like they're thrashing us in every area of the game.

[chw42]

People are overreacting to this move. Hudson is a good player, but he's not an elite 2b anymore. I mean, this is the guy who got benched in the 2nd half last year for Ronnie Belliard. He's not Chase Utley.

 

The thing is, they had Alexi Casilla there penciled in before he was signed. Hudson >>>>>> 2009 Casilla.

 

And I've thought about the defense on paper thing, the Twins and Sox are pretty much dead even in that department.

 

White Sox Predicted UZR by a mix of my thoughts and CHONE

Juan Pierre: 3.0 in LF

Alex Rios: 2.0 in CF

Carlos Quentin: -4.0 in RF

Mark Teahen: -6.0 at 3B

Alexei Ramirez: 2.0 at SS

Gordon Beckham: 2.0 at 2B

Paul Konerko: 1.0 at 1B

Total Starter UZR: 0

 

Twins Predicted UZR

Delmon Young: -10.0 UZR in LF

Denard Span: 2.5 UZR in CF

Michael Cuddyer: -9.0 UZR in RF

Nick Punto: 3.5 UZR at 3B

J.J. Hardy: 8.0 UZR at SS

Orlando Hudson: -1.5 UZR at 2B

Justin Morneau: 0 UZR at 1B

Total Starter UZR: -4.5

 

Factor in the difference between Mauer and A.J. as catchers and you have yourself a pretty dead even defense on paper, in terms of value next season.

 

 

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

I had no idea that the defensive numbers of either Hudson or Young were nearly that bad.

[chetkincaid]

I had no idea that the defensive numbers of either Hudson or Young were nearly that bad.

 

I'm not concerned about the twins defensive prowess... I'm worried about them scoring a bazillion more runs than we will and about them getting clutch hits when they need them.

[3GamesToLove]

I tune out whenever I see UZR, VORP, etc. Hell, OPS is a bit much for me.

[ThunderBolt]

I tune out whenever I see UZR, VORP, etc. Hell, OPS is a bit much for me.

That’s a damn shame. All of these are relevant terms in modern baseball discussion.

[macsandz]

I had no idea that the defensive numbers of either Hudson or Young were nearly that bad.

 

Hardy is not nearly the defensive SS he used to be and Hudson has been awful recently as well. Look at the other metrics...

If you are going to measure a team's defense you have to include the bench, of course. The Sox have like 23 Gold Gloves

available as replacements between Jones/Vizquel/Kotsay.

[macsandz]

I'm sick of being angry about our DH situation, so I'm just going to live with it and hope either Jones and Kotsay step up big time or KW can make a move midseason to fill that hole.

 

Kenny will upgrade the DH you can count on that. He's either waiting for Damon to drop, waiting for ST to inform him further, or waiting for the trade deadline.

 

[chw42]

I had no idea that the defensive numbers of either Hudson or Young were nearly that bad.

 

Delmon Young's always been terrible. Hudson's been on a steady decline for the past few years. Makes sense.

 

Nice article about the horrendous Twins corner outfielder combo: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pity-nick-blackburn

 

Basically, Cuddyer and Young's defense erase any offensive value each brings to the table.

Edited February 8, 2010 by chw42

[chw42]

Hardy is not nearly the defensive SS he used to be and Hudson has been awful recently as well. Look at the other metrics...

If you are going to measure a team's defense you have to include the bench, of course. The Sox have like 23 Gold Gloves

available as replacements between Jones/Vizquel/Kotsay.

 

Kotsay's below average, Jones is only above average at the corners, and Vizquel still has it.

 

So yeah, the Sox have better bench defense. But for the most part, those guys will play the minimal amount of innings.

 

The Twins have a hell of a left side infield defense. But their corner outfielders are terrible.

Edited February 8, 2010 by chw42

[caulfield12]

Delmon Young's always been terrible. Hudson's been on a steady decline for the past few years. Makes sense.

 

Nice article about the horrendous Twins corner outfielder combo: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pity-nick-blackburn

 

Basically, Cuddyer and Young's defense erase any offensive value each brings to the table.

 

 

But couldn't we say the same thing about Dye/Pods/Quentin last year defensively?

 

Well, I just hope they don't sign Joe Mauer to a six-year contract today. That would really suck. And I'm not going to root for him to get injured...no matter what, you have to respect him as an opponent and admit he's become a truly great player.

[chw42]

But couldn't we say the same thing about Dye/Pods/Quentin last year defensively?

 

Well, I just hope they don't sign Joe Mauer to a six-year contract today. That would really suck. And I'm not going to root for him to get injured...no matter what, you have to respect him as an opponent and admit he's become a truly great player.

 

We don't have two of those guys anymore and Quentin's poor defensive season last year had a lot to do with his foot. The Twins still have all those three mentioned in the article. There lies the difference.

[shakes]

Hardy is not nearly the defensive SS he used to be and Hudson has been awful recently as well. Look at the other metrics...

If you are going to measure a team's defense you have to include the bench, of course. The Sox have like 23 Gold Gloves

available as replacements between Jones/Vizquel/Kotsay.

 

Hardy is a lumbering SS with below average range. He is sure handed and has a good arm, but he won't get to a lot of balls you think he should. He's a case where UZR severely overrates him as a defender. He's one of the reasons I really still can't put a lot of stock in UZR. They miss the boat badly on more than a few defenders.

 

It looks like the Twins defense could take a pretty good step down from their past teams. Their outfield defense will be awful and they have some flyball ptichers.

Edited February 8, 2010 by shakes

[SoxFan1]

People are overreacting to this move. Hudson is a good player, but he's not an elite 2b anymore. I mean, this is the guy who got benched in the 2nd half last year for Ronnie Belliard. He's not Chase Utley.

Thank God, someone here has some sense. Orlando Hudson makes the Twins the favorites in the central? Really? Really?

[ThunderBolt]

Thank God, someone here has some sense. Orlando Hudson makes the Twins the favorites in the central? Really? Really?

No, the Twins were already the favorites to win the central, Hudson just increases the chances.

[VAfan]

Are the Twins really the favorite on a home grass field? That has been a team made for the Metrodome confines for years. Maybe it will translate onto grass, but I'll have to see it first to believe it.