Wood's 20 K's vs Buehrle's perfect game

[vandy125]

I know that we are just talking about the perfect game, but I'd like to throw in the 5 2/3 of innings in the next game on top of it that Buehrle was perfect. 45 straight hitters up and down (I think it also includes an out from his previous game), which no one had ever done before.

[bmags]

Alexei was helping us telepathically from cuba.

[SoxAce]

Do you mean Uribe?

 

Ah my mistake. I had the "ALEXEIIIII" call from Hawk in my head on that one. Hell I had Fields name typed out before I realized it was Konerko that was playing 1B in the Texas game.

[Kalapse]

They are both impressive, but I think wood's was more dominating. But at the same time theres no pressure on a 20 k game of giving up a dinky hit and it all being over.

Sure there is, every baserunner increases your pitch count and the likelihood that you get pulled from the game. The only reason that Wood was even afforded the opportunity to go for 20 K's was because he only allowed 2 baserunners the entire game and was in turn able to keep his pitch count down. 3 extra baserunners along the way and he'd have been pushing 140 pitches by the end of the 9th something he didn't come close to doing until 2003 (he's only gone above 133 once in his career). Especially in a close NL game where you have the added element of having to hit, there's always the chance that you'll have to be lifted for a pinch hitter and it just makes the manager's decision easier if you have 115 pitches through 7.

 

In '07 Jake Peavy had 16 K through 7 IP but had thrown 117 pitches thanks to the 5 baserunners he had allowed, he didn't come back out for the 8th.

[kev211]

Sure there is, every baserunner increases your pitch count and the likelihood that you get pulled from the game. The only reason that Wood was even afforded the opportunity to go for 20 K's was because he only allowed 2 baserunners the entire game and was in turn able to keep his pitch count down. 3 extra baserunners along the way and he'd have been pushing 140 pitches by the end of the 9th something he didn't come close to doing until 2003 (he's only gone above 133 once in his career). Especially in a close NL game where you have the added element of having to hit, there's always the chance that you'll have to be lifted for a pinch hitter and it just makes the manager's decision easier if you have 115 pitches through 7.

 

In '07 Jake Peavy had 16 K through 7 IP but had thrown 117 pitches thanks to the 5 baserunners he had allowed, he didn't come back out for the 8th.

Yes, this is true. But one mistake or blooper or grounder through a hole isn't going to end it like it will a perfect game.

[SoxAce]

Sure there is, every baserunner increases your pitch count and the likelihood that you get pulled from the game. The only reason that Wood was even afforded the opportunity to go for 20 K's was because he only allowed 2 baserunners the entire game and was in turn able to keep his pitch count down. 3 extra baserunners along the way and he'd have been pushing 140 pitches by the end of the 9th something he didn't come close to doing until 2003 (he's only gone above 133 once in his career). Especially in a close NL game where you have the added element of having to hit, there's always the chance that you'll have to be lifted for a pinch hitter and it just makes the manager's decision easier if you have 115 pitches through 7.

 

In '07 Jake Peavy had 16 K through 7 IP but had thrown 117 pitches thanks to the 5 baserunners he had allowed, he didn't come back out for the 8th.

 

Your acting like that error to Orie (yes I still call it an error even though it was a hit) was later in the game. That happened in the top of the 3rd so Wood already knew that he gave one up long ago (Biggio's HBP was in the 6th). I would say that would seriously decrease the pressure of throwing goose eggs, and just going all out (in fact.. the runner was at 3B cause of the sac. bunt to 2B. and Wood balked moving him to 3B) Wood also had 18 K's into the 9th inning so he would have either tied or broken the record. There's not a doubt in my mind if he only had say.. 16 Ks he would not have pitched the 9th inning especially with his pitch count over 100 not to mention he was a young guy comming in not pitching that much stressful innings before. In essence, that game (along with the additional innings pitched afterward from AAA to the stressful innings and pitch count in the bigs) cost him his elbow later on during the season and 1999.

[Kalapse]

Your acting like that error to Orie (yes I still call it an error even though it was a hit) was later in the game. That happened in the top of the 3rd so Wood already knew that he gave one up long ago (Biggio's HBP was in the 6th). I would say that would seriously decrease the pressure of throwing goose eggs, and just going all out (in fact.. the runner was at 3B cause of the sac. bunt to 2B. and Wood balked moving him to 3B) Wood also had 18 K's into the 9th inning so he would have either tied or broken the record. There's not a doubt in my mind if he only had say.. 16 Ks he would not have pitched the 9th inning especially with his pitch count over 100 not to mention he was a young guy comming in not pitching that much stressful innings before. In essence, that game (along with the additional innings pitched afterward from AAA to the stressful innings and pitch count in the bigs) cost him his elbow later on during the season and 1999.

He threw at least 115 pitches in 5 of his next 8 outings. His pitch count was only at 110 pitches going into the 9th and like you said, that hit came in the 3rd inning and he hit Biggio in the 6th so he was on an incredible role through 8 and it was only a 2 run game, he had a lot things going for him going into the 9th, not just K's. Given how long of a leash Riggleman had him on pitch count wise through that entire season I'm fairly certain Wood would have pitched the 9th regardless of how many K's he had, not that it really matters.

 

As for the hit to Orie: I saw it again about a month ago and it's a play a thirdbaseman needs to make but it's a judgment call so it can go either way. It's all a matter of opinion.

[SoxAce]

He threw at least 115 pitches in 5 of his next 8 outings. His pitch count was only at 110 pitches going into the 9th and like you said, that hit came in the 3rd inning and he hit Biggio in the 6th so he was on an incredible role through 8 and it was only a 2 run game, he had a lot things going for him going into the 9th, not just K's.

 

Man.. really explains how terrible Riggleman was back then in handling pitching staffs and bullpens. I believe he was very good as far as lineups and using his bench.

[Harry Chappas]

Man.. really explains how terrible Riggleman was back then in handling pitching staffs and bullpens. I believe he was very good as far as lineups and using his bench.

 

Pitch counts were not talked about as much back then as they are now.

[Chisoxfn]

18 perfectos, and 4 20-K games.

 

I go with Wood's though. I would rather throw a perfect game vs. striking out 20, but if we are comparing Buehrle's perfect game to Woods, I go with Woods. Wood only allowed 2 baserunners, and did not allow a run. Both resulted in a win. Buehrle allowed 2 less baserunners, but Wood struck out what, 12 more batters?

And had there been even decent defense at 3B, Wood's 20K game would have also been a no-hitter. I have to go with Wood, such a dominant performance.

[Harry Chappas]

And had there been even decent defense at 3B, Wood's 20K game would have also been a no-hitter. I have to go with Wood, such a dominant performance.

 

If that play is made it is a no hitter but it may have only have been a 19 K performance. Which is better to have a no hitter or a 20 K performance.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

If that play is made it is a no hitter but it may have only have been a 19 K performance. Which is better to have a no hitter or a 20 K performance.

 

Wood's performance was more impressive, but as a pitcher I'd rather have my name tied to a perfect game.

[palehose23]

My point is that you can lose a 20K's game. Advantage Buehrle

[Steve9347]

[Kalapse]

My point is that you can lose a 20K's game. Advantage Buehrle

Except Wood didn't lose his. That's like saying a random Roy Halladay shutout is more impressive than Buehrle's no hitter from '07 because Buehrle still could have lost the game and Halladay could not. You have to compare the two outings specifically, not in general terms. The question isn't which is more impressive: a 20K game or a perfect game. It's what's more impressive: Kerry Wood's 20 k game from 1998 or Buehrle's perfect game from 2009.

[Steve9347]

Highest game score of all-time in a 9-inning game...

 

Advantage, Wood.

 

Wood: 105

Buehrle: 93

Edited March 30, 2010 by Steve9347

[Balta1701]

Highest game score of all-time in a 9-inning game...

 

Advantage, Wood.

Of course when you give a guy an extra point for a strikeout, he's going to have more points for a game with a lot of strikeouts.

[SoxAce]

The question isn't which is more impressive: a 20K game or a perfect game. It's what's more impressive: Kerry Wood's 20 k game from 1998 or Buehrle's perfect game from 2009.

 

Well the question was which was the more impressive feat. I stated it earlier.

 

And the Rays had the #5 ranked offense in the AL (7th overall in the majors) not to mention their worst lineup they averaged 5.22 runs per game (guys like Bartlett, etc.. had career years too) TB team had seven 0 run games all season (Astros six) TB had 37 games which they scored less than 3 runs (Astros 30) so we are not talking about a huge difference here. As far as pitcher dominance, no doubt it was Wood's game. But as far as the more impressive feat, that has to be Buehrle.

 

Obviously though, this thread has alot of pro Wood and pro Buehrle in it, so it is a very good/legit discussion and a good thread by J4L.

Edited March 30, 2010 by SoxAce

[elgonzo4sox]

I've watched the Wood 20K game, and I have to say, the ump had an awfully wide strike zone that day. Calling balls and strikes is a subjective judgment call. If the zone had been slightly different, or had even one particular pitch been called differently, then Wood has a 19K (or lower) day instead of 20Ks. Yes, this sounds like a nit, but I think it shows that comparing the 5 20K strikeout games in MLB history to the 18 perfect games isn't a fair comparison.

 

Yes, there can be subjectivity in outs as well as balls and strikes, but there is less. Buehrle had only 6 strikeouts, and had to record 21 solid outs in the field. None of them was a subjective judgment call that could be argued/disputed, or which the replay shows the umps screwed up. Had replay technology been used to call the all the outs in Buehrle's game, he still would have gotten his perfect game. But if computerized strike zone technology had been used to call Wood's game, would he still have gotten his 20 Ks?

 

All that said, Wood's game is impressive. I just prefer a perfect game more, because it truly is just what the name says: a "perfect" game. No runner reaches base. Absolutely nothing goes wrong. Buehrle's game was a thing of beauty, a rare glimpse of perfection in a far-from-perfect world.

 

 

 

 

 

[TitoMB345]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SD...200107180.shtml

Holy crap, that's incredible. 5 K's away from a perfect 7 innings of all K's! Makes me love the guy even more. Can't believe I have never heard of that game before, though.

[Quin]

 

My only reply to this the MLB.com box score for Buehrle's game.

 

[TitoMB345]

My only reply to this the MLB.com box score for Buehrle's game.

Obviously you're a Beckham fan...

[LittleHurt05]

I've watched the Wood 20K game, and I have to say, the ump had an awfully wide strike zone that day. Calling balls and strikes is a subjective judgment call. If the zone had been slightly different, or had even one particular pitch been called differently, then Wood has a 19K (or lower) day instead of 20Ks. Yes, this sounds like a nit, but I think it shows that comparing the 5 20K strikeout games in MLB history to the 18 perfect games isn't a fair comparison.

 

Yes, there can be subjectivity in outs as well as balls and strikes, but there is less. Buehrle had only 6 strikeouts, and had to record 21 solid outs in the field. None of them was a subjective judgment call that could be argued/disputed, or which the replay shows the umps screwed up. Had replay technology been used to call the all the outs in Buehrle's game, he still would have gotten his perfect game. But if computerized strike zone technology had been used to call Wood's game, would he still have gotten his 20 Ks?

 

All that said, Wood's game is impressive. I just prefer a perfect game more, because it truly is just what the name says: a "perfect" game. No runner reaches base. Absolutely nothing goes wrong. Buehrle's game was a thing of beauty, a rare glimpse of perfection in a far-from-perfect world.

 

You do realize that MB had the same human judgement when it came to his ball/strike calls. And there were a few calls that he was given that could have been called balls, including a ball four in the ninth. The perfect game could have just as easily been a no hitter if they had strike zone technology too.

[Quin]

Obviously you're a Beckham fan...

 

Took me a minute to get that.

 

I was this close to buying a gray Knights Beckham jersey they were selling like at the stadium, one week before he was called up.

[TitoMB345]

Took me a minute to get that.

 

I was this close to buying a gray Knights Beckham jersey they were selling like at the stadium, one week before he was called up.

Aren't you glad you didn't? I can't wait to get a Beckham jersey this summer.