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2011 NFL Lockout Thread

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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 27, 2011 -> 12:38 PM)
Who builds, produces, designs or provides a better product/service, the people who own something or the people who actually do the work?

 

Without the people who own something, the rest of that doesn't happen.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 27, 2011 -> 01:39 PM)
Without the people who own something, the rest of that doesn't happen.

Technically, the only thing preventing the same players from switching to a different league is the contract law.

 

Since most of the stadiums are at least partially, if not totally built and owned by the taxpayers.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 27, 2011 -> 12:39 PM)
Without the people who own something, the rest of that doesn't happen.

 

Another excellent argument for a different ownership structure than stockholder capitalism, where the actual stakeholders and people who actually produce the goods/services benefit the most.

 

http://www.burnsmcd.com/portal/page/portal/Internet/About_Us

http://www.jlpjobs.com/

 

 

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Usually I side with the owners in these disputes, but with all the head injuries and suicides of NFL players... they ought to cough it up.

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QUOTE (bmags @ Apr 27, 2011 -> 01:57 PM)
Usually I side with the owners in these disputes, but with all the head injuries and suicides of NFL players... they ought to cough it up.

Trouble is...if the owners offered better retirement health benefits but included a corresponding drop in revenue share to pay for those health benefits, do you think the players would accept that deal?

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why would they?

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If the owners were like f*** it, the NFL is done EVERY owner would go off and still be a millionaire/billionaire.. the majority of the players from the NFL would be screwed

 

I still don't see why they think they can make any demands here

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QUOTE (bmags @ Apr 27, 2011 -> 02:35 PM)
why would they?

In other words...you're asking the owners to pony up additional funds to the players to pay for the health benefits.

 

Why would they do that?

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QUOTE (T R U @ Apr 27, 2011 -> 02:40 PM)
If the owners were like f*** it, the NFL is done EVERY owner would go off and still be a millionaire/billionaire.. the majority of the players from the NFL would be screwed

I feel like a lot of them have a majority of their assets tied up in the franchises, and they're able to pay the bills yearly because of the yearly revenue. They also employ a whole lot of their family members.

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If owning an NFL franchise was such a s***ty deal they'd have all sold their teams long ago. Come on. The owners can't function at the level they do without the players and vice versa, this isn't really that controversial a concept or hard to understand/explain, otherwise the Arena League, Lingerie Football League, and what used to be the XFL would be drawing in billions in revenue per year too or at least putting a meaningful dent in the NFL's popularity. They're essentially arguing over percentage points but the owners don't really feel like they have to fully argue their case, they want to dictate, not negotiate. They just have much better PR consultants than the players to make it sound all noble and s***, while the players make dumbass comments about slavery and other stupid s***.

 

Also when people think "player salaries" they think of Tom Brady and Julius Peppers. For every one of them there's probably like 10 other random guys who are just trying to make a NFL roster and make nowhere near 10, 15 million a year.

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10? I'd say 20-30. Don't training camps usually start with ~80 ish person roster.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 27, 2011 -> 09:27 PM)
10? I'd say 20-30. Don't training camps usually start with ~80 ish person roster.

Yeah, you're right. Nate Jackson's post on Deadspin that a couple people have referred to makes this point, those guys still count as NFL players and they go through the whole process, signing contracts, etc. Goodell is basically saying none of these guys matter.

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I find it hard to care about either side. I hope they all suffer devastating losses to their finances if they can't work something out before the next season.

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The minimum wage guys are making like half a million dollars a year. I am pretty sure they also get health insurance for life now. They aren't hurting.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 27, 2011 -> 10:21 PM)
The minimum wage guys are making like half a million dollars a year. I am pretty sure they also get health insurance for life now. They aren't hurting.

No. And they're virtually uninsurable after leaving the league because they played in the NFL and no self-respecting insurer wants any part of that person.

 

At least until a new CBA is agreed to.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 28, 2011 -> 07:42 AM)
No. And they're virtually uninsurable after leaving the league because they played in the NFL and no self-respecting insurer wants any part of that person.

 

At least until a new CBA is agreed to.

 

Long term care is not health insurance.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 28, 2011 -> 08:51 AM)
Long term care is not health insurance.

Here's what was available under the last CBA.

NFL players with at least three accredited NFL seasons currently receive five years of medical benefits after retirement.
The Owners had an offer on the table to allow current players to remain in the league's health care plan for life. It's been suggested repeatedly that because the NFL doesn't provide long term health insurance for their retired players they're opening themselves up to a very large disability claim.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 27, 2011 -> 09:21 PM)
The minimum wage guys are making like half a million dollars a year. I am pretty sure they also get health insurance for life now. They aren't hurting.

 

That's not true.

 

http://deadspin.com/#!5795895/dear-rog...reer-looks-like

For most guys, though, the phone doesn't ring. After all, there are 80 men in training camp and only 53 roster spots. Twenty-seven of those men will not be on the opening day roster. But should that take them out of the equation? Those athletes are the soul of training camp. They work harder than anyone for almost no money (players make about $400 a week during the offseason, slightly more during training camp). Players only get their salary if they make it to the regular season.

 

27 guys are cut from each training camp during and after the preseason each year, which in total is the equivalent to more than 1/3 of the league. Some of those guys end up on the practice squad and I don't know how those types are paid, but the minimum salary in the NFL for rookies (according to answer.com) is $285K. They do well for themselves, but most of those guys don't make it long in the NFL and then they have to go find real work, so $285K is not going to cover too much for too long.

 

Beyond that, as Jackson points out in the article, these guys are destroying their bodies just trying to get food onto the table. How much of an economic impact do injuries like that affect a person? It's certainly possible that those types of injuries may not allow a person to do any sort of physical labor afterwards and it's possible that a head injury or two takes away some mental capacity. Beyond the hypothetical mental capacity drain, I tend to doubt a lot of these players are actually capable or prepared to work any sort of desk job, and some of them end up suffering with severe mental illnesses as a result of playing in the league as well.

 

I don't know enough about hockey salaries to compare that, but this is a completely different scenario than MLB or NBA teams. Guys that sign a contract in those leagues are guaranteed their salary (unless it clearly states otherwise). Brent Lillibridge is guaranteed to make $400K this year.

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QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Apr 28, 2011 -> 01:22 PM)
That's not true.

 

http://deadspin.com/#!5795895/dear-rog...reer-looks-like

 

 

27 guys are cut from each training camp during and after the preseason each year, which in total is the equivalent to more than 1/3 of the league. Some of those guys end up on the practice squad and I don't know how those types are paid, but the minimum salary in the NFL for rookies (according to answer.com) is $285K. They do well for themselves, but most of those guys don't make it long in the NFL and then they have to go find real work, so $285K is not going to cover too much for too long.

 

Beyond that, as Jackson points out in the article, these guys are destroying their bodies just trying to get food onto the table. How much of an economic impact do injuries like that affect a person? It's certainly possible that those types of injuries may not allow a person to do any sort of physical labor afterwards and it's possible that a head injury or two takes away some mental capacity. Beyond the hypothetical mental capacity drain, I tend to doubt a lot of these players are actually capable or prepared to work any sort of desk job, and some of them end up suffering with severe mental illnesses as a result of playing in the league as well.

 

I don't know enough about hockey salaries to compare that, but this is a completely different scenario than MLB or NBA teams. Guys that sign a contract in those leagues are guaranteed their salary (unless it clearly states otherwise). Brent Lillibridge is guaranteed to make $400K this year.

 

I understand how you mean this in regards to possible medical bills, but a year or two of that salary would go a very long way unless you get seriously injured.

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QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 28, 2011 -> 03:14 PM)
I understand how you mean this in regards to possible medical bills, but a year or two of that salary would go a very long way unless you get seriously injured.

 

Define "very". After sky-high taxes, agent fees, and a massive health insurance plan after leaving the league, that money would last a couple years of a modest lifestyle.

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QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Apr 28, 2011 -> 03:19 PM)
Define "very". After sky-high taxes, agent fees, and a massive health insurance plan after leaving the league, that money would last a couple years of a modest lifestyle.

 

But are the guys that aren't even making the team really getting beat up so badly in their few years there? I seriously don't know the answer to this. It isn't sarcasm.

 

I would just think that the vast majority of these lingering injuries, and the issues associated with them, come during the actual games.

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How many of those guys are getting dropped or cut because of injuries? And even if they're only in the NFL for 2 or 3 years, they've still got probably 15 years of football under their belts. No insurance company is going to want to touch that without huge premiums.

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QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 28, 2011 -> 04:39 PM)
But are the guys that aren't even making the team really getting beat up so badly in their few years there? I seriously don't know the answer to this. It isn't sarcasm.

 

I would just think that the vast majority of these lingering injuries, and the issues associated with them, come during the actual games.

 

Just having been a football player is enough for you to end with sky high insurance rates (health, life, etc). There's no doubt that a ton of these guys could manage their finances better, but the post-football costs are a pretty big issue for them.

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QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Apr 30, 2011 -> 12:13 AM)
It's back, for now. We'll see what happens next week, when more is supposed to be happening.

All that happens this week is a hearing on extending the stay, which the owners ought to win.

 

The 8th circuit won't actually hear the real case for some time.

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