Indians

[Texsox]

Now that they won the division, how far will they get in the playoffs?

[southsider2k5]

And most importantly, what does their attendence look like?

[fathom]

And most importantly, what does their attendence look like?

 

I didn't know they were all in this season and telling their fans that they need them to show up in order to support the record organizational payroll.

[caulfield12]

I didn't know they were all in this season and telling their fans that they need them to show up in order to support the record organizational payroll.

 

 

Who would the Indians be forced to trade in the next year or so if they got too expensive?

 

Carmona or Choo?

 

They're pretty much stuck with Hafner and Sizemore for the time being, right?

 

 

[fathom]

Who would the Indians be forced to trade in the next year or so if they got too expensive?

 

Carmona or Choo?

 

They're pretty much stuck with Hafner and Sizemore for the time being, right?

 

They were in serious discussions to trade Carmona last offseason. I'm not really worried about Cleveland though.

[Balta1701]

I didn't know they were all in this season and telling their fans that they need them to show up in order to support the record organizational payroll.

I think they're more on the "they need to show up in order to support the existence of the franchise" level.

[High Mileage]

No Royals thread like this yet...?

[fathom]

I think they're more on the "they need to show up in order to support the existence of the franchise" level.

 

I have not heard anything relating to the franchise being in trouble. Isn't Roger Dorn still the owner?

 

Anyways, for those saying we haven't ripped their attendance, that's false. The second game of the season, there were a handful of posts amazed by the lack of fans in the stands.

[southsider2k5]

No Royals thread like this yet...?

 

The who now?

[Texsox]

We need to start rebuilding right now and follow the Indian's successful model.

[zenryan]

Here in Cleveland? I didnt know we still had a team..

[Jordan4life_2007]

We need to start rebuilding right now and follow the Indian's successful model.

 

You're obviously being condescending. But no GM in the central had come close to pulling off as many shrewd (and in most cases straight ripoff) trades as Shapiro since mid-2006.

 

1: Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez

2: Shin-Soo Choo for Ben Broussard

3: Carlos Santana for Casey Blake

4: Justin Masterson for Victor Martinez

5: Chris Perez for Mark Derosa

 

Sure, the Sabathia trade isn't lookin' so hot. And it's still too early to truly judge the Lee trade from their side. But those are 5 terrific trades in a short amount of time. If he had the freedom to spend $100+ million, no telling what he could do.

[Dick Allen]

You're obviously being condescending. But no GM in the central had come close to pulling off as many shrewd (and in most cases straight ripoff) trades as Shapiro since mid-2006.

 

1: Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez

2: Shin-Soo Choo for Ben Broussard

3: Carlos Santana for Casey Blake

4: Justin Masterson for Victor Martinez

5: Chris Perez for Mark Derosa

 

Sure, the Sabathia trade isn't lookin' so hot. And it's still too early to truly judge the Lee trade from their side. But those are 5 terrific trades in a short amount of time. If he had the freedom to spend $100+ million, no telling what he could do.

KW got Quentin for Carter

Floyd for a broken down Garcia

Danks for McCarthy

Thornton for Borchard

Jenks for nothing

 

and he has the freedom to spend $100 million plus. Call Shipiro a genius but the Indians still suck, and I'm certainly not a KW fan.

[witesoxfan]

Here in Cleveland? I didnt know we still had a team..

 

Yep, we have uniforms and everything.

 

You're obviously being condescending. But no GM in the central had come close to pulling off as many shrewd (and in most cases straight ripoff) trades as Shapiro since mid-2006.

 

1: Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez

2: Shin-Soo Choo for Ben Broussard

3: Carlos Santana for Casey Blake

4: Justin Masterson for Victor Martinez

5: Chris Perez for Mark Derosa

 

Sure, the Sabathia trade isn't lookin' so hot. And it's still too early to truly judge the Lee trade from their side. But those are 5 terrific trades in a short amount of time. If he had the freedom to spend $100+ million, no telling what he could do.

 

Masterson for Martinez? The other 4 are obvious, but Masterson hasn't been good with Cleveland and Victor was great with Boston and I'm about 99% sure he was a Type A free agent too. The other two Cleveland got in that trade have been quite mediocre.

 

Honestly, it seems to me that trading elite players away just doesn't work out well and that, instead, you are better off making tons and tons of small trades. You aren't going to get Shin-Soo Choo and Carlos Santana for league average players at all times, but you are giving up very little overall in terms of production and have the ability to add so much more to your ballclub. The only trade of a really good player I can think of that resulted in a big gain for the trading team was the Teixeira to Atlanta deal, and Atlanta gave up a monster of a package to acquire him.

[Jordan4life_2007]

KW got Quentin for Carter

Floyd for a broken down Garcia

Danks for McCarthy

Thornton for Borchard

Jenks for nothing

 

and he has the freedom to spend $100 million plus. Call Shipiro a genius but the Indians still suck, and I'm certainly not a KW fan.

 

You kinda proved my point. Those first four were from 2006/2007. And Jenks wasn't a trade. KW has been awful since '08.

 

 

Masterson for Martinez? The other 4 are obvious, but Masterson hasn't been good with Cleveland and Victor was great with Boston and I'm about 99% sure he was a Type A free agent too. The other two Cleveland got in that trade have been quite mediocre.

 

Honestly, it seems to me that trading elite players away just doesn't work out well and that, instead, you are better off making tons and tons of small trades. You aren't going to get Shin-Soo Choo and Carlos Santana for league average players at all times, but you are giving up very little overall in terms of production and have the ability to add so much more to your ballclub. The only trade of a really good player I can think of that resulted in a big gain for the trading team was the Teixeira to Atlanta deal, and Atlanta gave up a monster of a package to acquire him.

 

I've been a big Masterson fan for a few years. He's been dynamite so far this year and reminds me of Brandon Webb. When your GB% is 60%+, you're going to be just fine. Martinez was expendable due to the Santana ripoff.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Jordan4life

[southsider2k5]

You're obviously being condescending. But no GM in the central had come close to pulling off as many shrewd (and in most cases straight ripoff) trades as Shapiro since mid-2006.

 

1: Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez

2: Shin-Soo Choo for Ben Broussard

3: Carlos Santana for Casey Blake

4: Justin Masterson for Victor Martinez

5: Chris Perez for Mark Derosa

 

Sure, the Sabathia trade isn't lookin' so hot. And it's still too early to truly judge the Lee trade from their side. But those are 5 terrific trades in a short amount of time. If he had the freedom to spend $100+ million, no telling what he could do.

 

And what has Cleveland got to show for that? We spent all week talking about results, and yet you are praising the Indians? Ok.

[caulfield12]

Yep, we have uniforms and everything.

 

 

 

Masterson for Martinez? The other 4 are obvious, but Masterson hasn't been good with Cleveland and Victor was great with Boston and I'm about 99% sure he was a Type A free agent too. The other two Cleveland got in that trade have been quite mediocre.

 

Honestly, it seems to me that trading elite players away just doesn't work out well and that, instead, you are better off making tons and tons of small trades. You aren't going to get Shin-Soo Choo and Carlos Santana for league average players at all times, but you are giving up very little overall in terms of production and have the ability to add so much more to your ballclub. The only trade of a really good player I can think of that resulted in a big gain for the trading team was the Teixeira to Atlanta deal, and Atlanta gave up a monster of a package to acquire him.

 

 

Colon for Sizemore/C. Lee/Phillips/Lee Stevens?

Edited April 21, 2011 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

Colon for Sizemore/C. Lee/Phillips/Lee Stevens?

 

Yeah, I was just reading about that trade yesterday. That's 2 in like 10 years. There have been a hell of a lot more than 2 stars traded within the past 10 years.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, I was just reading about that trade yesterday. That's 2 in like 10 years. There have been a hell of a lot more than 2 stars traded within the past 10 years.

 

Does the first Freddy Garcia trade fall there? He was the top starter on the market at the time IIRC.

[witesoxfan]

Does the first Freddy Garcia trade fall there? He was the top starter on the market at the time IIRC.

 

I think when he was traded to Chicago, that one definitely does. He was having a fantastic season with Seattle and the Sox gave up 2 really good looking young players and a throw-in guy with some upside. None of those guys did anything with Seattle.

 

When he was traded from Chicago to Philadelphia though? I don't think so. His fastball was around 89 MPH when he was traded and if not for a fantastic September would have probably ended the year with an ERA over 5. As it was, he ended at 4.53. He may have been the best starter on the market, but he was still a #2-3 starter at best - not exactly a star.

[southsider2k5]

I think when he was traded to Chicago, that one definitely does. He was having a fantastic season with Seattle and the Sox gave up 2 really good looking young players and a throw-in guy with some upside. None of those guys did anything with Seattle.

When he was traded from Chicago to Philadelphia though? I don't think so. His fastball was around 89 MPH when he was traded and if not for a fantastic September would have probably ended the year with an ERA over 5. As it was, he ended at 4.53. He may have been the best starter on the market, but he was still a #2-3 starter at best - not exactly a star.

 

that is what I was thinking of.

[caulfield12]

The famous Von Hayes trade, Eric Milton to the Phillies for Carlos Silva and Nick Punto (simply because those guys helped the Twins and Milton collapsed)...AJ Pierzynski for Bonser/Liriano/Nathan, although hardly a superstar, I think he'd been at least an All-Star with the Twins once at that point.

 

Victor Zambrano for Kazmir?

 

Then you have the White Flag deal where we got Foulke and Howry, but Caruso and Barcelo were major disappointments.

Edited April 21, 2011 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

I honestly don't know Von Hayes, so I have no context with which to compare it too, though I'm sure others do. I can also look it up but with no knowledge of the time, I can't do much.

 

Milton was a mediocre pitcher and Victor Zambrano was terrible. AJ did have an all-star appearance with the Twins, though I'm not sure how justified it was. That is the type of trade that is one in a million though - I don't think you can ever ask for a better return. None of those guys that were traded were stars.

 

The White Flag trade is a pretty good example of it too. I recall Barcelo being the prize of that package and his arm disintegrated with each successive pitch. Howry and Foulke - two relievers - were all the White Sox had to show for a starting pitcher with an ERA in the low 3's, a great reliever, and a solid mid to back end of the rotation starter (who was at the tail-end of his career).

Edited April 21, 2011 by witesoxfan

[Dick Allen]

You kinda proved my point. Those first four were from 2006/2007. And Jenks wasn't a trade. KW has been awful since '08.

 

 

 

 

I've been a big Masterson fan for a few years. He's been dynamite so far this year and reminds me of Brandon Webb. When your GB% is 60%+, you're going to be just fine. Martinez was expendable due to the Santana ripoff.

I proved your point? You basically said no one comes close to Shapiro since mid 2006. I don't mind your overall pissed-offness (if thats a word) about the Sox, but your statement is just wrong, and waiver claims don't count but trades do?

Edited April 22, 2011 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

I proved your point? You basically said no one comes close to Shapiro since mid 2006. I don't mind your overall pissed-offness (if thats a word) about the Sox, but your statement is just wrong, and waiver claims don't count but trades do?

 

 

For all we know, Santos might end up having an even better career than Bobby Jenks...another example of either a typical "lucky" KW move working out or a very insightful job of scouting and analysis (Jenks, Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Thornton, Ramirez, Iguchi, etc.)

Edited April 22, 2011 by caulfield12