fire walker

[Pale Sox]

If the personnel was in place to be a real great offensive team, I would agree with you, but again look at the line up. It would be like judging the manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates the past 20 years on the win loss record.

I disagree about our lineup. If our guys are performing to their career averages (or in the case of our younger players like Beckham or Morel, performing to reasonable expectations) we have a lineup with very few holes.

[caulfield12]

Well, that's a short list.

 

Chris B. Young and Michael Morse never even worked with Greg Walker, except for Spring Training. Walker didn't "DO" anything to Jeremy Reed or Jeff Abbott and many of the other 53 "TOP 30" Sox minor league prospects who were traded and busted in other organizations. Chris Carter and B. Allen haven't lit the world on fire as projected by some.

 

Cynics would argue that those players didn't have the opportunity to have their swings ruined.

 

Sweeney has turned out to be exactly what many thought he would be....more of a 4th outfielder, as the power still hasn't developed that was projected based on his swing, height and frame.

 

It's not the players that have left....it's the famous (or infamous) cases of Borchard, Brian Anderson, Getz (who's basically the same exact 600-625 OPS guy he was in Chicago)Josh Fields, etc. So you can blame Walker or you can blame KW for not seeing the holes in their games and approaches from the very beginning.

 

And that's a legitimate point. Maybe there was such a dearth of talent in our system that Brent Morel HAD TO BE a top minor league prospect, whereas in other systems he would have been outside the TOP 10. Aforementioned prospect fails to meet "expectations" based on his ranking and it's easier to blame on Walker than Kenny. Because if someone's actually talented and a "good baseball player," there has to be an explanation for their failures, logically.

 

Really, 90% of the angst is about Beckham. If Viciedo succeeds, it will because Walker wasn't allowed to ruin him or change his approach....he came up "big league ready" and Walker didn't need to make a single adjustment.

Edited July 7, 2011 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I disagree about our lineup. If our guys are performing to their career averages (or in the case of our younger players like Beckham or Morel, performing to reasonable expectations) we have a lineup with very few holes.

I'd say Ramirez, Quentin, Konerko, AJ, Pierre are all hitting at or better than expectations.

I'd say Morel is doing what rookies do.

Beckham struggling.

Dunn struggling.

Rios struggling, but doesn't seem to care and is a guy another team gave away.

Lillibridge, much better than expectations.

Castro, about what can be expected

Vizquel as good or better than can be expected.

Teahen too small a sample size really weak average but has hit a couple of homers so I'd say as expected.

[Pale Sox]

Well, that's a short list.

 

Chris B. Young and Michael Morse never even worked with Greg Walker, except for Spring Training. Walker didn't "DO" anything to Jeremy Reed or Jeff Abbott and many of the other 53 "TOP 30" Sox minor league prospects who were traded and busted in other organizations. Chris Carter and B. Allen haven't lit the world on fire as projected by some.

 

Cynics would argue that those players didn't have the opportunity to have their swings ruined.

 

Sweeney has turned out to be exactly what many thought he would be....more of a 4th outfielder, as the power still hasn't developed that was projected based on his swing, height and frame.

 

It's not the players that have left....it's the famous (or infamous) cases of Borchard, Brian Anderson, Getz (who's basically the same exact 600-625 OPS guy he was in Chicago)Josh Fields, etc. So you can blame Walker or you can blame KW for not seeing the holes in their games and approaches from the very beginning.

 

And that's a legitimate point. Maybe there was such a dearth of talent in our system that Brent Morel HAD TO BE a top minor league prospect, whereas in other systems he would have been outside the TOP 10. Aforementioned prospect fails to meet "expectations" based on his ranking and it's easier to blame on Walker than Kenny. Because if someone's actually talented and a "good baseball player," there has to be an explanation for their failures, logically.

 

Really, 90% of the angst is about Beckham. If Viciedo succeeds, it will because Walker wasn't allowed to ruin him or change his approach....he came up "big league ready" and Walker didn't need to make a single adjustment.

 

Morel was pretty well regarded. He would have been in pretty much every Top 10 except maybe the Royals. He was a top 100 guy in BA and a 4 star guy by BP.

[Dick Allen]

Well, that's a short list.

 

Chris B. Young and Michael Morse never even worked with Greg Walker, except for Spring Training. Walker didn't "DO" anything to Jeremy Reed or Jeff Abbott and many of the other 53 "TOP 30" Sox minor league prospects who were traded and busted in other organizations. Chris Carter and B. Allen haven't lit the world on fire as projected by some.

 

Cynics would argue that those players didn't have the opportunity to have their swings ruined.

 

Sweeney has turned out to be exactly what many thought he would be....more of a 4th outfielder, as the power still hasn't developed that was projected based on his swing, height and frame.

 

It's not the players that have left....it's the famous (or infamous) cases of Borchard, Brian Anderson, Getz (who's basically the same exact 600-625 OPS guy he was in Chicago)Josh Fields, etc. So you can blame Walker or you can blame KW for not seeing the holes in their games and approaches from the very beginning.

 

And that's a legitimate point. Maybe there was such a dearth of talent in our system that Brent Morel HAD TO BE a top minor league prospect, whereas in other systems he would have been outside the TOP 10. Aforementioned prospect fails to meet "expectations" based on his ranking and it's easier to blame on Walker than Kenny. Because if someone's actually talented and a "good baseball player," there has to be an explanation for their failures, logically.

 

Really, 90% of the angst is about Beckham. If Viciedo succeeds, it will because Walker wasn't allowed to ruin him or change his approach....he came up "big league ready" and Walker didn't need to make a single adjustment.

Yet those same people say Walker makes negative adjustments daily with veteran hitters making $15 million a year. The old Walker if you succeed Walker had absolutely nothing to do with it. If you fail, its because he ruined you. The fact remains, as you pointed out, the hype really hasn't matched the reality with White Sox hitters recently. Lee and Maggs were pretty good. Walker didn't "ruin" them.

[Buehrle>Wood]

We cannot get worse, or at least it wouldn't matter if we did. So at least we are all in agreement firing walker could only make this team better. Come on KW.

[caulfield12]

Personally, it'd be nice to have a "new voice" in the coaching staff mix who wouldn't be "in Ozzie's pocket."

 

Clearly, Ozzie is a little too comfortable with who he surrounds himself with, his job status. It's like in the NFL, when the owner says he's bringing in an outsider offensive/defensive coordinator OR "don't let the door hit you on your way out."

 

Don't think KW even has the ability to enforce such a change, but it would be nice to have someone more independent from outside the organization.

 

It seems Buddy Bell has been "co-opted" from his once objective perch.

Edited July 7, 2011 by caulfield12

[TheBigHurt]

Is he responsible for any of the failure? If Daniel Hudson were a hitter and hit like he pitched for the Sox last season, all the Walker bashers would have used Hudson's success after he left as proof Walker had to go.

 

Just start naming the hitters that leave the White Sox and all of a sudden start hitting. I found one guy in the 8 years Walker has been the hitting coach and he didn't work with Walker. Nick Swisher. That is it. Some have had success, but they had the same success under Walker. No one became appreciably better like everyone thinks every White Sox hitter will be once Walker leaves and they are all sprayed with pixie dust.

 

He's the hitting coach. You're saying he's NOT responsible for any of the failure? As far as your Hudson example... LOL, what's your point?

 

You could legitimately argue that Walker's direction is that poor. You could also argue no one fitting the description you're mentioning was relevant enough EVER to matter. Like how good were NUMEROUS "hitters" that played here and went elsewhere? I see your point but it doesn't totally hold up. A vast majority of "hitters" on our club were either never good or were simply old.

 

 

I like how you dodged my point on Cooper, lol. According to your logic Cooper has nothing to do with any success of anyone on our pitching staff.

Edited July 7, 2011 by TheBigHurt

[almagest]

I was curious if the Sox hitters were really as bad at pitch selection and recognition as it seems. I bet there's a way to see how many times a player swung at a ball out of the zone, but I have no idea how to find that. What I did find, though, was that the league average for pitches per plate appearance is 3.81. The Sox team average is 3.67. If you take Dunn and Konerko out of there, it's way worse -- our leadoff hitter is at 3.41 P/PA.

[greg775]

Logic is on my side. Firing a guy not responsible for the woes of the team accomplishes nothing.

 

Then by god at least bring up Dayan and sit Rios and bat Dunn eighth.

Somebody challenge Beckham and Lexi to get their heads out of their ass and start fining guys for not moving runners.

[hi8is]

I'm of the thought that accountability needs to be upheld in any professional organization.

May it be a Real Estate Office, Marketing Firm, or Professional Sports Team - if results are not being displayed - changes need to be made.

 

Something has to be done.

SOMETHING!

[BigSqwert]

Logic is on my side. Firing a guy not responsible for the woes of the team accomplishes nothing.

So you're saying that you thing Greg Walker is doing an excellent job as a hitting coach and there isn't anyone out there that could be potentially doing a better job than he is in getting through to this lineup?

Edited July 7, 2011 by BigSqwert

[RockRaines]

The Walker defense is laughable. Who cares if he isnt "the cause", you arent going to change the entire lineup, therefore you HAVE to change something and thats the voice they hear on a daily basis. If you want the same results keep things the exact same. As it is, this team is not going to make the playoffs. What is the harm in changing a hitting coach? If they get worse, so what. if they get better, good.

[Chisoxfn]

I'd have to think, barring a series win, that there will be some pretty serious organizational meetings going on during the All Star Break. No better time to make changes than during the break. And while I have never thought that Walker is terrible, I have always thought that a message has to be sent and clearly he's the easiest guy to let go.

[BigSqwert]

I haven't heard a single reasonable explanation as to why Walker needs to stay here.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Is Viciedo's "magic" service time days number up yet?

[GoSox05]

Walker could show up to work drunk and with no pants on and he won't be fired. I just don't see anyway Ozzie is going to fire him.

 

I think the Sox need a change at the hitting coach. It might not do a damn thing, but I think it's worth a shot. When you are that bad at hitting you should be up for anything. Even Jobu.

[LVSoxFan]

Ozzie was on WGN this morning saying that the Sox just need to "play through" their hitting woes. Encouraging.

 

And nothing should get them back on track faster than a four game series with a team that pwns them in the Comedy Central. A team whose pitcher has gone on record saying that they enjoy pitching to the Sox because they "hack away" at everything.

[greg775]

Ozzie was on WGN this morning saying that the Sox just need to "play through" their hitting woes. Encouraging.

 

And nothing should get them back on track faster than a four game series with a team that pwns them in the Comedy Central. A team whose pitcher has gone on record saying that they enjoy pitching to the Sox because they "hack away" at everything.

 

Ugh.

No changes entering a 4-gamer vs. Minnesota.

Barring total domination from our starters, this isn't setting up pretty.

Our starters are damn good, but they aren't going to shut out many teams.

 

This promises to be very very ugly.

We needed to call up Viciedo and move Dunn to seventh or eighth in the order. Trouble a brewing.

[Uman85]

Our hitters are a joke to opposing pitchers. Nick Blackburn's comments say it all. If Walker isn't fired, then we have clowns running this organization.

[caulfield12]

Search google: Bozo and Cookie wearing White Sox hats

[Uman85]

Search google: Bozo and Cookie wearing White Sox hats

[StrangeSox]

[BigSqwert]

Awesome avatar material.

[Dick Allen]

The Walker defense is laughable. Who cares if he isnt "the cause", you arent going to change the entire lineup, therefore you HAVE to change something and thats the voice they hear on a daily basis. If you want the same results keep things the exact same. As it is, this team is not going to make the playoffs. What is the harm in changing a hitting coach? If they get worse, so what. if they get better, good.

What's laughable is blaming Rios, Dunn and Beckham all on nothing but Walker. Everyone else from a hitting standpoint is doing about what you would expect or better. So if you're not going to change the line up, the most laughable thing would be expecting different results. See Einstein's definition of crazy or look at the Cubs. They changed hitting coaches a couple of times, finally hiring the great Jaramillo. The changed managers. They were stuck with the same core of players. The results are the same.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Dick Allen