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macsandz

Time to dump Thornton at waiver deadline

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Is this even possible? With that contract, any chance he clears? Sale has made Thornton expendable.

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BOS, I am of the opinion you keep Thorton and try to develop Sale into the rotation next year.

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He'd get claimed by pretty much any playoff team. The Yankees would kill to have Matt especially.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 12:31 PM)
He'd get claimed by pretty much any playoff team. The Yankees would kill to have Matt especially.

If we really tanked and decided we wanted to cut bait, we could probably shed a lot of salary by putting Matt, PK, Quentin, Danks, MB, etc., on waivers...

 

It's not a particularly efficient manner in which to trade players, as you get limited to dealing him to the team that won the claim (unless of course he clears, which none of these guys would), but it would buy you an extra month to see how things shake out divisionally.

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 12:37 PM)
If we really tanked and decided we wanted to cut bait, we could probably shed a lot of salary by putting Matt, PK, Quentin, Danks, MB, etc., on waivers...

 

It's not a particularly efficient manner in which to trade players, as you get limited to dealing him to the team that won the claim (unless of course he clears, which none of these guys would), but it would buy you an extra month to see how things shake out divisionally.

 

Everyone will get put on waivers over this month. It ought to be interesting to see who clears and who doesn't. We should start seeing reports like that anytime now.

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QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 12:23 PM)
Is this even possible? With that contract, any chance he clears? Sale has made Thornton expendable.

What a terrible idea.

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Dumping Thornton kind of sounds like we just give him away to get rid of salary. I think Matt Thornton is a valuable member of the relief staff and if we look at developing Sale as a starter Matt is important to keep on this team.

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Keeping Thornton and making Sale a starter is a lot cheaper than keeping Sale in the bullpen and signing a starter.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 01:10 PM)
I'd still only move him for a good return.

 

Why wouldn't we?

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Thornton is not going anywhere until offseason If at all.

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Matt's age, diminished velocity compared to previous years, his expanding contract, his inability to control any secondary pitches on a consistent basis, his failure/s as a closer in April, his IP/H ratio, our high probability of needing to cut payroll by at least $20 million next year....etc.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 02:15 PM)
Why wouldn't we?

Because a good return would hurt our competitiveness this season and likely next season.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 01:17 PM)
Matt's age, diminished velocity compared to previous years, his expanding contract, his inability to control any secondary pitches on a consistent basis, his failure/s as a closer in April, his IP/H ratio, our high probability of needing to cut payroll by at least $20 million next year....etc.

 

 

pretty much the same across the board as every other year.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 01:18 PM)
Because a good return would hurt our competitiveness this season and likely next season.

 

What? A good return would hurt us, but that is what you want?

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 02:22 PM)
pretty much the same across the board as every other year.

His struggles this year haven't been about velocity, they've been some combination of control and simple "Hittability".

 

Dude used to be lights out when he'd get 2 strikes on a guy. Santos-level lights out. Then this year, all of a sudden, he couldn't put anyone away with 2 strikes.

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But, if the choice is keeping Danks/Quentin/Buehrle or MATTY for 2012, one of those guys becomes much more feasible with Thornton/Crain/Frasor gone, and you pull the trigger on that deal every time if you can get something of value back in return.

 

Especially with the overkill of having two righty set-up guys that are highly compensated and that being the strongest area of our farm system at the current moment.

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 01:23 PM)
His struggles this year haven't been about velocity, they've been some combination of control and simple "Hittability".

 

Dude used to be lights out when he'd get 2 strikes on a guy. Santos-level lights out. Then this year, all of a sudden, he couldn't put anyone away with 2 strikes.

 

I agree with this. But he hasnt lost the heat, it is still there. To me, its the location. He isnt spotting the fastball inside on righthanders, so they are just waiting on the meatball down the middle

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 02:25 PM)
I agree with this. But he hasnt lost the heat, it is still there. To me, its the location. He isnt spotting the fastball inside on righthanders, so they are just waiting on the meatball down the middle

I think there's also a little bit of a change in his arm angle or path, maybe very subtle, but somehow setting him up in a way where batters simply see the ball earlier.

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Caulfield, I think you need to accept the fact that Crain is not going anywhere.

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 02:27 PM)
Caulfield, I think you need to accept the fact that Crain is not going anywhere.

If we were to do a total rebuild, get down to $80 million in salary next year, he's still moveable, but he's fairly paid for the work he's doing.

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Thornton hasn't been missing as many bats as in years past.

 

It's largely because the more fastballs you see in an at-bat, the greater your chances of timing it are...and command/location.

 

Where's fangraphs on this? I'd swear he's down at least 1-1.5 mph on his fastball average this season.

 

Finally, because there's so much more contact being made....there's always a bloop, bleeder, broken bat single (he breaks more bats than anyone I've seen in recent years but they almost always wind up with a man on base), he's just also a little bit snake-bitten.

 

But that IP-H ratio has never been so lopsided. I would guess there's only one other year since he joined the Sox that he's given up more H and IP.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 10, 2011 -> 02:28 PM)
Thornton hasn't been missing as many bats as in years past.

 

It's largely because the more fastballs you see in an at-bat, the greater your chances of timing it are...and command/location.

 

Where's fangraphs on this? I'd swear he's down at least 1-1.5 mph on his fastball average this season.

 

Finally, because there's so much more contact being made....there's always a bloop, bleeder, broken bat single (he breaks more bats than anyone I've seen in recent years but they almost always wind up with a man on base), he's just also a little bit snake-bitten.

 

But that IP-H ratio has never been so lopsided. I would guess there's only one other year since he joined the Sox that he's given up more H and IP.

 

You know, you can actually google "Matt Thornton Fangraphs" yourself. It isnt' that hard.

 

Velocity: 2008 95.4

2009: 95.7

2010: 96.1

2011: 95.7.

 

1918_P_FA_20110808.png

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Matt Thornton hasn't lost velocity. I agree it's more about location and that is a struggle that may come and go with all pitchers. I also don't think keeping any player or not keeping them needs to get down only to the dollars issue. We spent $127M on salaries and have made some moves, but winning seems to smoth a lot of things over.

Edited by elrockinMT

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