Marty34 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I'd like to see Lillibridge get some time at short the remainder of the season to see if he a viable alternative to Ramirez. Ramirez should be shopped this winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Maybe they will do that when/if they're out of the race. He hasn't been playing that position enough this season to just put him there without little transition period. The big problem with Lilli isn't whether he can play SS. It's whether he can hit as an everyday player, especially against righties. They have a better defender down in AAA in Escobar, there must be more curiosity about him (hitting in the majors)....because they already know what Lillibridge can do from scouting him in the Braves' minor league system and when he was playing infield for ATL. I'm sure KW doesn't want to have a platoon at that position. Better to have everyday players in the middle infield to get that chemistry defensively. And here's the biggest problem with your idea. We arguably will need more help at 3B or 2B than SS in the next couple of years. Ramirez isn't expensive YET. So we're going to trade one of our 2-3 best players for a bunch of prospects. Well, look what the Indians got for Sabathia, or the Twins for Santana. The odds of getting a player back of Alexei's ability are about 5%. Escobar probably can't hit well enough to hold down SS full time. Not with so many other question marks in the offense....they can't afford yet another one. Going into 2012, who is a sure-thing offensively? Konerko, maybe AJ. Viciedo, probably. We're not even sure whether Quentin will be back. Edited August 21, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 I have serious doubts about Lillibridge's bat as an everyday player too, but against lefties he's an intriguing possibility at short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 10:06 AM) And here's the biggest problem with your idea. We arguably will need more help at 3B or 2B than SS in the next couple of years. Ramirez isn't expensive YET. So we're going to trade one of our 2-3 best players for a bunch of prospects. Well, look what the Indians got for Sabathia, or the Twins for Santana. The odds of getting a player back of Alexei's ability are about 5% Like it or not, the plan for them contending over the next few years has Beckham being what everyone thought he'd be or something close. I'm going to assume he gets back on track because if he doesn't we have bigger problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattZakrowski Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 11:02 AM) I'd like to see Lillibridge get some time at short the remainder of the season to see if he a viable alternative to Ramirez. Ramirez should be shopped this winter. You know, the idea of shopping Ramirez is interesting. Between age/contract/skill he's our most valuable asset if we want to fully rebuild and get prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) The post seemed to turn to Beckham needing to turn it around. What would trading Ramirez do for us there? I don't think you trade a silver slugger SS still learning at the big league level. He is a person you build around. I also think Beckham can get on track and having him and Ramirez together will be a major plus. Lot of areas to look at to improve this team, but saying we should trade Ramirez is missing the point. We are 5 games out now because of no production from Dunn-Rios-Beckham and struggles by some others early. Edited August 21, 2011 by elrockinMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I'm not sure about most valuable. It would be close, because of his contract ascending dramatically in the coming years and questions about his age. He doesn't seem to have the type of body that will break down in his early 30's, but you never can tell these days. Certainly you could make arguments now between Floyd, Ramirez, Sale, Santos, Viciedo and Danks (although moreso prior to the 2011 season) as to our most valuable asset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 11:24 AM) The post saeemed to turn to Beckham nedig to turn it around. What would trading Ramirez do for us there? I don't think you trade a silver slugger SS still learning at the big league level. He is a person you build around. I also think Bedckham can get on track and having him and Ramirez together will be a major plus. Lot of areas to look at to improve this team, but saying we should traade ramirez is missing the point. We are 5 games out now because of no production from Dunn-Rios-Beckham and struggles by some other early. Ramirez is a combination of too expensive/too old/not good enough to build around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 10:24 AM) The post saeemed to turn to Beckham nedig to turn it around. What would trading Ramirez do for us there? I don't think you trade a silver slugger SS still learning at the big league level. He is a person you build around. I also think Bedckham can get on track and having him and Ramirez together will be a major plus. Lot of areas to look at to improve this team, but saying we should traade ramirez is missing the point. We are 5 games out now because of no production from Dunn-Rios-Beckham and struggles by some other early. Therein lies the problem. All In again for 2012, and we have to keep Ramirez. And that's also contingent on Quentin, Danks, Buehrle a few others being around. Plan B and it's a much bigger question mark how competitive we'll be before Alexei's contract starts to bite into the payroll too much. You're right, in the sense you're dramatically weakening one of our net team strengths (because of his offense but mostly defense...the offense is still net "plus" for that position) and making it into another weakness going forward based on the idea we can get a slew of major league ready prospects for the likes of Danks, Quentin, Floyd, Thornton, Frasor or Crain, etc. Plan C, total rebuilding and 14K-18K attendance (except Cubs, Red Sox, Yankees) per game for the forseeable future and we simply have to trade Ramirez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 10:30 AM) Ramirez is a combination of too expensive/too old/not good enough to build around. By that definition, we have four players. Sale, who might not even make it as a starting pitcher, Santos and Z. Stewart, who likely profiles as a back end of the rotation guy. Then Viciedo. Ramirez is only making $5 million next season. That's STILL one of the great bargains for our club. signed extension with White Sox 2/3/11 12:$5M, 13:$7M, 14:$9.5M, 15:$10M, 16:$10M club option ($1M buyout) We still have Peavy/Dunn/Rios, Konerko, AJ ($6 million next year, more expensive and much older and less productive in all likelihood)... Matt Thornton, a lefty set-up guy, will make $5.5 million next year. Heck, Teahen was set up to make more than Alexei will. Crain will make $4.5 million. Floyd, Danks and Quentin will all make more than Ramirez. Unless you're tearing the entire team apart....you can't "reload/readjust" for 2012 and trade away Ramirez. It's the exact same position Hendry was in after 2009....being told he couldn't spend but to be competitive. That's how he ended up trading away some good players and forcing Milton Bradley onto the payroll. You make increasingly desperate moves when you're back into a corner. Edited August 21, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 05:30 PM) Ramirez is a combination of too expensive/too old/not good enough to build around. I think we have some too expensive players who are not performing, but Ramirez is not one of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 11:30 AM) Ramirez is a combination of too expensive/too old/not good enough to build around. Laughs out loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 05:26 PM) I'm not sure about most valuable. It would be close, because of his contract ascending dramatically in the coming years and questions about his age. He doesn't seem to have the type of body that will break down in his early 30's, but you never can tell these days. Certainly you could make arguments now between Floyd, Ramirez, Sale, Santos, Viciedo and Danks (although moreso prior to the 2011 season) as to our most valuable asset. I think we can makes some moves to shed salary without trading away the nucleus of our team. Build your team around pitching and defense. Edited August 21, 2011 by elrockinMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 10:41 AM) I think we have some too expensive players who are not performing, but Ramirez is not one of them Trading the Silver Slugger and one of the best three defenders in baseball at his position, in the prime of his career...making $1.1 million in 2010...that's telling the rest of the players that you made so many horrible decisions with the rest of the roster that your ineptitude in decision-making has forced an ever more desperate move that will end up making things SOMEHOW worse going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattZakrowski Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 12:26 PM) Certainly you could make arguments now between Floyd, Ramirez, Sale, Santos, Viciedo and Danks (although moreso prior to the 2011 season) as to our most valuable asset. Floyd isn't as good as Alexei relative to his position. Sale isn't proven as a starter, and Santos will never be more than a reliever. Viciedo might give him a run due to team control, but Danks isn't under contract long enough to surpass Ramirez' value. For the record, Dave Cameron at Fangraphs saw it the same way. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2...de-value-35-31/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (MattZakrowski @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 11:51 AM) Floyd isn't as good as Alexei relative to his position. Sale isn't proven as a starter, and Santos will never be more than a reliever. Viciedo might give him a run due to team control, but Danks isn't under contract long enough to surpass Ramirez' value. For the record, Dave Cameron at Fangraphs saw it the same way. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2...de-value-35-31/ That same fangraphs should have told KW to sell high on Rios while it was still a possibility. Well, all water under the bridge. On average, for all 30 teams (not ones specifically needing a closer, in which case Santos would have more value obviously)....Ramirez would be the one. Maybe in a couple of seasons, not so much....due to aging and increasing payroll obligations. At least through 2014, it looks to be a great deal for the Sox. But I'm sure there are a few GM's who would love to get their hands on Sale and/or Viciedo. Especially, Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Another one of Marty's brilliant ideas. Trade one of the best players in the league at his position while he is still a bargain. Nice work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 01:35 PM) Another one of Marty's brilliant ideas. Trade one of the best players in the league at his position while he is still a bargain. Nice work. That is how you rebuild sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 11:30 AM) Ramirez is a combination of too expensive/too old/not good enough to build around. The only way this statement makes any sense whatsoever is if it's MANNY Ramirez you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattZakrowski Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 01:44 PM) That is how you rebuild sometimes. Exactly. Nobody wants Adam Dunn/Alex Rios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (MattZakrowski @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 01:49 PM) Exactly. Nobody wants Adam Dunn/Alex Rios. If the Sox need to cut salary, and want to restock somewhat, Alexei Ramirez is not cheap even if he is cheap relative to his contract. That is a reason to move him, and the fact that he is still cheap relative to his contract is what makes him moveable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattZakrowski Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I see it more as a way to get good prospects, but considering our attendance drop and huge amount of Albatross contracts every dollar probably counts at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 12:44 PM) That is how you rebuild sometimes. That would be one of the worst moves to start rebuilding. Especially since right now your strength moving forward is young pitching that needs stellar defense. Move Alexei at this point is pretty damn dumb, especially when finding a replacement for him would be extremely hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 02:48 PM) That would be one of the worst moves to start rebuilding. Especially since right now your strength moving forward is young pitching that needs stellar defense. Move Alexei at this point is pretty damn dumb, especially when finding a replacement for him would be extremely hard. Depends on what you mean by "Rebuilding". If you think that the best this team will ever have in it as currently constructed is a .500 team, and you're just going to get more expensive as guys get older because there's no talent available to replace it, then that's a move you at least consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Putting Eduardo Escobar out there wouldn't kill the defense. But Beckham and Morel might actually need to hit at 700 OPS clips to make it feasible. 600-635 won't do it for both those guys. DeAza, LillyBOMB and Flowers have all looked stout when they've had opportunities this last month. Another shutout by the Sox pitching staff. It's another offday and on to So Cal. Tigers get the Mariners. That's not good....the could reach their high point of 11 games over 500 on the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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