... it's about time

[greg775]

People like you apparently don't realize there are two concepts called "facts" and "logic." If you don't grasp either of those then frankly having a "differing opinion" doesn't make you credible. Here's a FACT that some people can't accept (mainly because this country beats this "everyone's opinion counts" crap into everyone's heads): Some people's opinions are simply WRONG; not valid and, consequently, not worth being taken seriously.

 

I also love how you (like most other people that are stubborn about Ozzie) switch it to "hold the players accountable." So why is it that when people who want to defend the manager present their case, it always seems to revolve around the idea that the players are the only ones accountable and the management should get off scot-free? Apparently to people like yourself, NOTHING management ever does can be wrong or a fireable offense; only the players' faults/shortcomings make any negative impact on a team. That's purely and simply FOOLISH.

 

 

I don't hold Ozzie accountable for players playing bad; I hold Ozzie accountable for consistently putting guys in the lineup who aren't hitting and putting them in HIGH SPOTS. Dunn hitting behind Konerko at this point in the season is beyond stupid. I hold Ozzie accountable for the consistently (BLATANTLY) ignorant things he does that potentially cost us wins.

 

I don't hold KW accountable for the players playing bad; I hold KW accountable for depleting our farm system to virtually nothing while emptying a truckload of cash to give to guys like Rios (Dunn is admittedly not his fault at all) who obviously had gone south and was staying there. Going into this season looking at our big league team and farm system I thought to myself, "God DAMN I hope no one major gets sidelined and put on the DL or we are SCREWED.

 

 

It's absolutely asinine that the people who STILL defend Ozzie can't see how OBVIOUSLY clueless the guy is at managing a ballclub and somehow think the players are the ONLY ones who are at fault for anything... EVER. Quite frankly if you think this way and take this position then you DESERVE to be insulted.

 

Wow.

I love when people lose it and freak out on here.

You are wrong BTW. We Ozzie lovers also think he's made mistakes. This Ozzie lover will not be surprised nor will I cry or be sad when he gets the boot.

I also will wish our new manager well.

But I also recognize why he is playing the high paid guys and why he's batting them so high. Some people act like we are crazy. Well I tell u to get used to seeing Adam batting fourth next year no matter who our skipper is. And Rios fifth.

[chw42]

Minus the 2 powerhouses (Detoit and Cleveland seem to have better futures), sounds like a lateral move but there's still a better upside than here because expectations would be lower.

 

Are you being serious? Have you seen the pitchers the Braves have on their team right now along with what they have coming up in their system? Cleveland just dealt away half their farm for Ubaldo, who for all intents and purposes, is incredibly inconsistent and losing velocity on the fastball. Detroit doesn't have much of a farm system and I doubt they'll be able to to sustain success for a very long time without spending big bucks on free agents.

 

Plus, the Nationals are definitely an up and coming team with the potential to field a great pitching staff led by Zimmermann and Strasburg. The Phillies also aren't declining. Lee and Halladay still have at least a few good years left in them and as long as they perform, that team will be very good. The Marlins have some nice young players, but moving from the AL Central to the NL East is definitely not a lateral move.

 

Ozzie hasn't "won big" in one of the worst divisions in baseball. What makes you think the Marlins have a chance to win big in the best division in the National League when they haven't come close to relevance for the past 7 years?

Edited September 3, 2011 by chw42

[chw42]

Great post. The bottom line is some people can't handle people who don't agree with them. That's fine with me.

Ptatc had a good take on Oz IMO. Yes Ozzie is going to win big the rest of his career. Unfortunately it appears it won't be with the Sox. Dave Martinez lovers will find plenty to criticize once we are 30 or so games into the season. LaRussa ... we all know there will be plenty to criticize there. My guess is when you match up Ozzie with whomever replaces him ... Ozzie will have the better resume and the better future.

 

Okay, let's take a look at that resume.

 

Managerial career winning percentage: .526

Managerial career winning percentage without 2005: .514

Average team salary during tenure: $100 million

Winning percentage with $100+ million payrolls: .519

 

If you take out 2005, Ozzie's is leading teams to an 83 win season. Jerry Manuel did that with a $50 million payroll (regardless of the time frame in which he managed, that is still a huge difference). But even if we include 2005, 85 wins a season given the fact that he's been given fairly talented rosters ($100 million should get you nearly a 90 win team, not an 85 win team), he's still underachieving.

 

So what if you say that it's Kenny's fault for not allocating the funds correctly? Well, Kenny sure did a hell of a job when Manuel was the manager, those teams averaged 86 wins with a $50 million payroll. I'd say that's definitely worth some praise, even more so if you think Jerry Manuel was a horrible manager.

 

Plus, how do we explain players under-performing? What is about this team that makes hitters who were consistent hitting machines (Dunn) before their arrival to the city turn into Drew Butera? Is it Ozzie? Is it Greg Walker? Is it the fans? I'm not certain, but this team has given Swisher, Rios, and Dunn the worst season of their careers by far. Thus, it is actually hard to blame Kenny for acquiring some of these guys (especially Dunn) considering their previous history. Rios and Swisher definitely deserve some criticism since they were very risky, but Rios looked like a great pickup last season and Swisher...well...he and Ozzie sure as hell didn't get along. Which brings me to my next point...

 

Is Ozzie really a good player's manager? People usually mention this as Ozzie's greatest strength, but let's revisit some past history. Remember when Ozzie showed up Sean Tracey for not hitting a batter? First of all, when other players see that, they are less interested in coming to the White Sox. Some players do not like Ozzie Guillen and they will not play for him. It's different for everyone, but if you're supposed to be a good player's manager, you should be welcomed by everyone. An SI poll back in 06 showed that Ozzie was voted 8th best manager and 7th worst manager by the players. So literally, it's a love or hate thing, but once again, if you're a good player's manager, almost everyone should like you, not a 50/50 split.

 

So really, Ozzie's not a great player's manager, he's underachieved more so than Jerry freaking Manuel if you view his time with the Sox in a wider context than 2005, and I won't even go on to explain how bad he is at managing the actual games (which is what most of his duties as a manager consist of). He hasn't won big with a team that has given a talented $100 million roster almost every single year, what makes you think he will win big with a $40 million roster down in Florida?

 

So there you have it, a thought-out argument for why Ozzie can't really win big in Florida given his resume. Now if you want to post a thought-out rebuttal with facts to back up your opinions, that is fine. But until you do, I, along with a lot of other users on this board, won't take your opinion seriously on this matter.

Edited September 3, 2011 by chw42

[TheBigHurt]

Wow.

I love when people lose it and freak out on here.

You are wrong BTW. We Ozzie lovers also think he's made mistakes. This Ozzie lover will not be surprised nor will I cry or be sad when he gets the boot.

I also will wish our new manager well.

But I also recognize why he is playing the high paid guys and why he's batting them so high. Some people act like we are crazy. Well I tell u to get used to seeing Adam batting fourth next year no matter who our skipper is. And Rios fifth.

 

Why is that? It better be a good reason. "They are paid the highest so they need to play" is NOT a good reason. If you think that's a good reason then it's proof you know nothing about baseball... or any sport/activity in which the goal is to WIN, for that matter.

 

 

Also love how you said you wish we had Ozzie for 20 more years (ROFL) yet flip over and say you won't be sad if he's gone. Seems kinda strange to me.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Okay, let's take a look at that resume.

 

Managerial career winning percentage: .526

Managerial career winning percentage without 2005: .514

Average team salary during tenure: $100 million

Winning percentage with $100+ million payrolls: .519

 

If you take out 2005, Ozzie's is leading teams to an 83 win season. Jerry Manuel did that with a $50 million payroll (regardless of the time frame in which he managed, that is still a huge difference). But even if we include 2005, 85 wins a season given the fact that he's been given fairly talented rosters ($100 million should get you nearly a 90 win team, not an 85 win team), he's still underachieving.

 

So what if you say that it's Kenny's fault for not allocating the funds correctly? Well, Kenny sure did a hell of a job when Manuel was the manager, those teams averaged 86 wins with a $50 million payroll. I'd say that's definitely worth some praise, even more so if you think Jerry Manuel was a horrible manager.

 

Plus, how do we explain players under-performing? What is about this team that makes hitters who were consistent hitting machines (Dunn) before their arrival to the city turn into Drew Butera? Is it Ozzie? Is it Greg Walker? Is it the fans? I'm not certain, but this team has given Swisher, Rios, and Dunn the worst season of their careers by far. Thus, it is actually hard to blame Kenny for acquiring some of these guys (especially Dunn) considering their previous history. Rios and Swisher definitely deserve some criticism since they were very risky, but Rios looked like a great pickup last season and Swisher...well...he and Ozzie sure as hell didn't get along. Which brings me to my next point...

 

Is Ozzie really a good player's manager? People usually mention this as Ozzie's greatest strength, but let's revisit some past history. Remember when Ozzie showed up Sean Tracey for not hitting a batter? First of all, when other players see that, they are less interested in coming to the White Sox. Some players do not like Ozzie Guillen and they will not play for him. It's different for everyone, but if you're supposed to be a good player's manager, you should be welcomed by everyone. An SI poll back in 06 showed that Ozzie was voted 8th best manager and 7th worst manager by the players. So literally, it's a love or hate thing, but once again, if you're a good player's manager, almost everyone should like you, not a 50/50 split.

 

So really, Ozzie's not a great player's manager, he's underachieved more so than Jerry freaking Manuel if you view his time with the Sox in a wider context than 2005, and I won't even go on to explain how bad he is at managing the actual games (which is what most of his duties as a manager consist of). He hasn't won big with a team that has given a talented $100 million roster almost every single year, what makes you think he will win big with a $40 million roster down in Florida?

 

So there you have it, a thought-out argument for why Ozzie can't really win big in Florida given his resume. Now if you want to post a thought-out rebuttal with facts to back up your opinions, that is fine. But until you do, I, along with a lot of other users on this board, won't take your opinion seriously on this matter.

 

Bravo. I like greg. But he's gone off the deep-end with this Ozzie crap of late. Thing is, it wasn't that long ago that he was on the fire Ozzie bandwagon. Maybe that was just for show? Maybe the reality of Ozzie actually one day (next year, hopefully) not being the manager is just too much for him to comprehend? He watches his 2005 DVD over and over and over again and comes to the conclusion that Ozzie and only Ozzie is the only manager or potential manager worthy of leading his favorite team? Only greg really knows.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Texsox]

Bottom line, with a variety of lineups, veterans coming and going, there are two consistent truths for the past 6 seasons

1. The team underachieves
2. Ozzie is the manager

 

If it was the same group of guys, then let's give me a try with a different group. My hunch is Ozzie will have a LaRussa style career, he'll be loved somewhere. But it's time to make a switch, even the ghosts of 2005 have quit watching. I'm not rabid about it, I'm not screaming at Ozzie during games very often, but I think the team needs a change in attitude and atmosphere, the way to do that is to Oz a big kiss and send him to "pursue new interests", to "spend some time with the family", or whatever story comes out.

[Texsox]

Why is that? It better be a good reason. "They are paid the highest so they need to play" is NOT a good reason. If you think that's a good reason then it's proof you know nothing about baseball... or any sport/activity in which the goal is to WIN, for that matter.

 

 

Also love how you said you wish we had Ozzie for 20 more years (ROFL) yet flip over and say you won't be sad if he's gone. Seems kinda strange to me.

 

How quickly do you abandon a strategy that you have invested $$$$ in? As an organization, it was decided that the team would win the division by doing X.Y. and Z this season. They were convinced it was a winning strategy, they invested a lot of money to make it work. It isn't as much about playing the guys that are making the most money, it is following the blueprint.

 

[BigSqwert]

How quickly do you abandon a strategy that you have invested $$$$ in?

 

Quickly? 5 straight months of virtually no production from 2 players and you think it's too quick to bench these guys? Even the GM said go ahead and play the best players and not the highest paid ones.

[BigSqwert]

Ozzie doesn't have as good of winning percentage as a White Sox manager as Gene Lamont. He averages less than 2 wins a year more per year than Jerry Manuel even though the highest the Sox payroll was ranked during Manuel's tenure was lower than the lowest it was ranked during Ozzie's. He averages less than 2 wins a year more than Jeff Torborg even though Torborg worked with the lowest payroll in baseball 2 of his 3 years as a manager. Your love for Ozzie is impressive, but he's not nearly as good or as irreplaceable as you think.

 

Except for actually winning playoff series, and maybe that was all Ozzie or all KW and not the players, the Sox during the regular season have pretty much been the same since about 1990. Even Terry Bevington guided them to 85 wins one season. The PR campain Oney and Cowley have going stating the Sox will slip back to losing 90-95 games while Ozzie collects WS rings if he leaves isn't based on reality. I'd love to see Ozzie deal with Loria. That won't end pretty either.

 

Bravo!

 

And I'm sure greg and Lemon44 will completely ignore this post.

[Dick Allen]

According to the Sun Times, and not Cowley, although he could be ghost writing, Walker and KW got into it recently about KWs comments about Beckham's swing. KW fired Walker but JR smoothed things over. If true, it really makes you wonder what JR thinks of KW's sudden whims and what kind of power he has left. One thing seems certain, it looks like Greg Walker is in his final few weeks as the White Sox hitting coach. Someone else will have to take the blame next year.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...frontation.html

Edited September 3, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Milkman delivers]

Kind of the same with you. If I don't agree with your thoughts, I'm wrong or have no common sense. I think I'd rather argue with a brick wall, at least I wouldn't have to listen to insults and bullcrap if I have a differing opinion.

 

No, I very rarely insult people unless they are complete buffoons. And I have civil arguments and debates with posters all the time, and will admit when I've been proven wrong or when a valid point is made.

[Jordan4life_2007]

According to the Sun Times, and not Cowley, although he could be ghost writing, Walker and KW got into it recently about KWs comments about Beckham's swing. KW fired Walker but JR smoothed things over. If true, it really makes you wonder what JR thinks of KW's sudden whims and what kind of power he has left. One thing seems certain, it looks like Greg Walker is in his final few weeks as the White Sox hitting coach. Someone else will have to take the blame next year.

 

Then so be it. He won't be the first, or last, hitting coach to be replaced. He doesn't (nobody does) warrant permanent job security.

[Milkman delivers]

People like you apparently don't realize there are two concepts called "facts" and "logic." If you don't grasp either of those then frankly having a "differing opinion" doesn't make you credible. Here's a FACT that some people can't accept (mainly because this country beats this "everyone's opinion counts" crap into everyone's heads): Some people's opinions are simply WRONG; not valid and, consequently, not worth being taken seriously.

 

I also love how you (like most other people that are stubborn about Ozzie) switch it to "hold the players accountable." So why is it that when people who want to defend the manager present their case, it always seems to revolve around the idea that the players are the only ones accountable and the management should get off scot-free? Apparently to people like yourself, NOTHING management ever does can be wrong or a fireable offense; only the players' faults/shortcomings make any negative impact on a team. That's purely and simply FOOLISH.

 

 

I don't hold Ozzie accountable for players playing bad; I hold Ozzie accountable for consistently putting guys in the lineup who aren't hitting and putting them in HIGH SPOTS. Dunn hitting behind Konerko at this point in the season is beyond stupid. I hold Ozzie accountable for the consistently (BLATANTLY) ignorant things he does that potentially cost us wins.

 

I don't hold KW accountable for the players playing bad; I hold KW accountable for depleting our farm system to virtually nothing while emptying a truckload of cash to give to guys like Rios (Dunn is admittedly not his fault at all) who obviously had gone south and was staying there. Going into this season looking at our big league team and farm system I thought to myself, "God DAMN I hope no one major gets sidelined and put on the DL or we are SCREWED.

 

 

It's absolutely asinine that the people who STILL defend Ozzie can't see how OBVIOUSLY clueless the guy is at managing a ballclub and somehow think the players are the ONLY ones who are at fault for anything... EVER. Quite frankly if you think this way and take this position then you DESERVE to be insulted.

 

Wow, nice!

[Milkman delivers]

Okay, let's take a look at that resume.

 

Managerial career winning percentage: .526

Managerial career winning percentage without 2005: .514

Average team salary during tenure: $100 million

Winning percentage with $100+ million payrolls: .519

 

If you take out 2005, Ozzie's is leading teams to an 83 win season. Jerry Manuel did that with a $50 million payroll (regardless of the time frame in which he managed, that is still a huge difference). But even if we include 2005, 85 wins a season given the fact that he's been given fairly talented rosters ($100 million should get you nearly a 90 win team, not an 85 win team), he's still underachieving.

 

So what if you say that it's Kenny's fault for not allocating the funds correctly? Well, Kenny sure did a hell of a job when Manuel was the manager, those teams averaged 86 wins with a $50 million payroll. I'd say that's definitely worth some praise, even more so if you think Jerry Manuel was a horrible manager.

 

Plus, how do we explain players under-performing? What is about this team that makes hitters who were consistent hitting machines (Dunn) before their arrival to the city turn into Drew Butera? Is it Ozzie? Is it Greg Walker? Is it the fans? I'm not certain, but this team has given Swisher, Rios, and Dunn the worst season of their careers by far. Thus, it is actually hard to blame Kenny for acquiring some of these guys (especially Dunn) considering their previous history. Rios and Swisher definitely deserve some criticism since they were very risky, but Rios looked like a great pickup last season and Swisher...well...he and Ozzie sure as hell didn't get along. Which brings me to my next point...

 

Is Ozzie really a good player's manager? People usually mention this as Ozzie's greatest strength, but let's revisit some past history. Remember when Ozzie showed up Sean Tracey for not hitting a batter? First of all, when other players see that, they are less interested in coming to the White Sox. Some players do not like Ozzie Guillen and they will not play for him. It's different for everyone, but if you're supposed to be a good player's manager, you should be welcomed by everyone. An SI poll back in 06 showed that Ozzie was voted 8th best manager and 7th worst manager by the players. So literally, it's a love or hate thing, but once again, if you're a good player's manager, almost everyone should like you, not a 50/50 split.

 

So really, Ozzie's not a great player's manager, he's underachieved more so than Jerry freaking Manuel if you view his time with the Sox in a wider context than 2005, and I won't even go on to explain how bad he is at managing the actual games (which is what most of his duties as a manager consist of). He hasn't won big with a team that has given a talented $100 million roster almost every single year, what makes you think he will win big with a $40 million roster down in Florida?

 

So there you have it, a thought-out argument for why Ozzie can't really win big in Florida given his resume. Now if you want to post a thought-out rebuttal with facts to back up your opinions, that is fine. But until you do, I, along with a lot of other users on this board, won't take your opinion seriously on this matter.

 

Great post, I especially love the bold part

[Milkman delivers]

According to the Sun Times, and not Cowley, although he could be ghost writing, Walker and KW got into it recently about KWs comments about Beckham's swing. KW fired Walker but JR smoothed things over. If true, it really makes you wonder what JR thinks of KW's sudden whims and what kind of power he has left. One thing seems certain, it looks like Greg Walker is in his final few weeks as the White Sox hitting coach. Someone else will have to take the blame next year.

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...frontation.html

 

I truly am getting tired of Reinsdorf sticking his nose in there so much. It seems like Williams has no power whatsoever. He is the General Manager. Let him make the decisions or just have JR become the GM himself.

[SoxAce]

I truly am getting tired of Reinsdorf sticking his nose in there so much.

 

He has pissed me off for years as an owner (Bulls and Sox) but like Ozzie, it's a love/hate thing. He obviously has his pros and cons as well.

[Dick Allen]

I truly am getting tired of Reinsdorf sticking his nose in there so much. It seems like Williams has no power whatsoever. He is the General Manager. Let him make the decisions or just have JR become the GM himself.

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure DVS's source on this latest thing is Cowley, who probably got it from Oney who got if from Ozzie. Funny how this gets into print the day after Cowley gets scorched on the radio. Maybe its the first strike in Cowley's attempt to "blow up" KW, which really wouldn't be bad IMO, if it won't save Ozzie.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Chicago White Sox]

I truly am getting tired of Reinsdorf sticking his nose in there so much. It seems like Williams has no power whatsoever. He is the General Manager. Let him make the decisions or just have JR become the GM himself.

Well Kenny is as good as gone. If he doesn't even have the power to fire the hitting coach, despite numerous players performing well below expectations, then he's in a lot of trouble. Also, this pretty much cements the theory that KW can not fire Ozzie, but I think most of already came to that conclusion.

[Balta1701]

Well Kenny is as good as gone. If he doesn't even have the power to fire the hitting coach, despite numerous players performing well below expectations, then he's in a lot of trouble. Also, this pretty much cements the theory that KW can not fire Ozzie, but I think most of already came to that conclusion.

There's also a "KW can't be fired" thing that appears to be going on too.

 

I have no idea who actually has the decision making power in this org any more.

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I'm gonna say this, I have a lot of respect for Jerry Reinsdorf. I am certainly not agreeing with everything that he has done but overall he has been a good owner for the Bulls and Sox.

 

However, if he retains either KW or Ozzie after this season then I will have lost faith in him as a capable owner of this baseball franchise.

[Balta1701]

I'm gonna say this, I have a lot of respect for Jerry Reinsdorf. I am certainly not agreeing with everything that he has done but overall he has been a good owner for the Bulls and Sox.

 

However, if he retains either KW or Ozzie after this season then I will have lost faith in him as a capable owner of this baseball franchise.

The sad thing is...if he retains KW, he's indirectly indicting himself...because to me, that means that JR himself is taking responsibility for a decent number of the decisions that have dragged into this mess.

[Marty34]

This team is not underachieving, PECOTA projected them to be .500. They were never good enough to win the division.

[Balta1701]

This team is not underachieving, PECOTA projected them to be .500. They were never good enough to win the division.

Pecota also hates Mark Buehrle because he doesn't strike enough people out and projected a big falloff from Konerko.

[Marty34]

So what if you say that it's Kenny's fault for not allocating the funds correctly? Well, Kenny sure did a hell of a job when Manuel was the manager, those teams averaged 86 wins with a $50 million payroll. I'd say that's definitely worth some praise, even more so if you think Jerry Manuel was a horrible manager.

 

Plus, how do we explain players under-performing? What is about this team that makes hitters who were consistent hitting machines (Dunn) before their arrival to the city turn into Drew Butera? Is it Ozzie? Is it Greg Walker? Is it the fans? I'm not certain, but this team has given Swisher, Rios, and Dunn the worst season of their careers by far. Thus, it is actually hard to blame Kenny for acquiring some of these guys (especially Dunn) considering their previous history. Rios and Swisher definitely deserve some criticism since they were very risky, but Rios looked like a great pickup last season and Swisher...well...he and Ozzie sure as hell didn't get along. Which brings me to my next point...

 

1.) The Manuel teams were largely Schueler creations.

 

2.) Add Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, David Wells, Roberto Alomar, Ken Griffey, JR. to Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Swisher. Only Wells and Swisher did anything after leaving the Sox. Seems like Williams has a knack MLB veterans who are past their useful life.

[Dick Allen]

1.) The Manuel teams were largely Schueler creations.

 

2.) Add Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, David Wells, Roberto Alomar, Ken Griffey, JR. to Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Swisher. Only Wells and Swisher did anything after leaving the Sox. Seems like Williams has a knack MLB veterans who are past their useful life.

Guillen batted Dunn 4th and Rios 5th into August. A lot of this is on KW, without question. A lot of it is on Ozzie as well. They have behaved like 2 little kids trying to become JR's favorite. Its time for adults to make the White Sox decisions. That means getting rid of both.