Don't tease me...

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, he really helped Paul Konerko alright. He watched him go through a couple off horrendous half-season long slumps until he "figured it out." What a genius that Walker is.

You do realize Walker took over halfway through 2003 don't you? Kind of ruins your post.

[elrockinMT]

When Jerry Manuel was fired, was he a "scapegoat" as well? Or did he deserve it? Does any manager that ever gets fired actually deserve it in your eyes, or are they all just scapegoats because no manager can be that big of a difference maker?

 

If you can't even admit that Ozzie fully deserves to be fired at this point, and not just that he's a scapegoat, I truly believe that you are nothing more than a fanboy of his.

 

 

Are you trying to make a point here or something? I do like Ozzie Guillen. I think back on the days of Jerry Manuel and I think in his case he lost the team

[South Side Fireworks Man]

You do realize Walker took over halfway through 2003 don't you? Kind of ruins your post.

No, it doesn't ruin my post. Paulie went through other periods of extended slumps after 2003. And Paulie did learn a lot because of those extended slumps which is a credit to him. He probably learned more from those slumps than from Walker and look at what he had to go through before he finally figured it out.

 

Although I wouldn't credit Walker with Paulie's current success, even if you insist on doing so it would prove the exception to the rule. Walker has a track record of watching his hitters go through extended slumps. Walker's body of work includes the sub-par results from his hitters like Rios, Dunn, Swisher, Betemit, Uribe, Beckham .....

[RockRaines]

LOL, the only person who "helped" Paul Konerko is Paul Konerko. He knows more about hitting than Greg Walker ever will.

Edited September 13, 2011 by RockRaines

[Jordan4life_2007]

Lol@Betemit. I want Walker gone. But that's reaching there.

[DirtySox]

Reading Jim's article makes me think he is an excellent baseball analyst. Far above anyone on the Trib or Sun Times.

 

Jim is fantastic. His pieces are almost always worth a read.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Lol@Betemit. I want Walker gone. But that's reaching there.

The point with Betemit is the one and only thing he could do relatively well was hit. But with the Sox, he couldn't even do that. Just another of Walker's failed students.

[Balta1701]

The point with Betemit is the one and only thing he could do relatively well was hit. But with the Sox, he couldn't even do that. Just another of Walker's failed students.

Yeah. Those 50 plate appearances tell you the whole story.

[Dick Allen]

No, it doesn't ruin my post. Paulie went through other periods of extended slumps after 2003. And Paulie did learn a lot because of those extended slumps which is a credit to him. He probably learned more from those slumps than from Walker and look at what he had to go through before he finally figured it out.

 

Although I wouldn't credit Walker with Paulie's current success, even if you insist on doing so it would prove the exception to the rule. Walker has a track record of watching his hitters go through extended slumps. Walker's body of work includes the sub-par results from his hitters like Rios, Dunn, Swisher, Betemit, Uribe, Beckham .....

Name one player who doesn't go through an extended slump. Just one. How about guys like Thome, Dye, Rowand, Podsednik, Quentin, Crede, AJP didn't drop off, Uribe snapped back after being horrid in Colorado, then he slipped, then snapped back then slipped again. Iguchi was pretty good, Ramirez, despite what some will tell you about his expectations, won a Silver Slugger while making a little over $1 million a year. I believe the expectations weren't that or he would have been paid a lot more. I posted something earlier, but in the 8 seasons Walker was the hitting coach, it might shock you to know, the White Sox offense was ranked higher in the league than the White Sox pitching 4 times. I guarantee the Sox spend more money on pitchers per average salary than position players.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Yeah. Those 50 plate appearances tell you the whole story.

No, only a small part of the story. All the other players I mentioned plus the results of the past few years tell the rest.

 

OK, I give up. Walker is the best hitting coach ever and should be given a 10 year extension even if KW and Ozzie are gone after this season. He'll turn these hitters around if it takes him 10 years to do it!

[Dick Allen]

The point with Betemit is the one and only thing he could do relatively well was hit. But with the Sox, he couldn't even do that. Just another of Walker's failed students.

Danks, Floyd, Contreras, Buerhle, Jackson, Vazquez, Jenks, Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel, Koch, Wells, Colon, Loaisa, Peavy, all they could do is pitch and all have gone through extended slumps, at least the pitching equivalent of 50 AB. Its time to get rid of Cooper.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Dick Allen

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Danks, Floyd, Contreras, Buerhle, Jackson, Vazquez, Jenks, Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel, Koch, Wells, Colon, Loaisa, Peavy, all they could do is pitch and all have gone through extended slumps, at least the pitching equivalent of 50 AB. Its time to get rid of Cooper.

Yeah you win. Cooper sucks. Get rid of him too. Just keep Walker and rebuild around him.

[Balta1701]

No, only a small part of the story. All the other players I mentioned plus the results of the past few years tell the rest.

 

OK, I give up. Walker is the best hitting coach ever and should be given a 10 year extension even if KW and Ozzie are gone after this season. He'll turn these hitters around if it takes him 10 years to do it!

What you don't realize is that trying to indict Walker based on Betemit's 50 at bats is just as nonsensical as the statement you make here.

 

If you bring a weak argument to the table, people will call you on it.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah you win. Cooper sucks. Get rid of him too. Just keep Walker and rebuild around him.

I'm glad you see the light.

[JohnCangelosi]

At this point it doesn't even matter if it's Walkers fault or not. They need to make a change to show they actually, uhh, care and want to try something new, different, do, uhhh, SOMETHING. Look at what could have been if we brought up Viciedo in June? De Aza for Rios? Look at the spark they've provided? While not a guarantee, it would have shown they were willing to make a change.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I think part of the reason for the pop-ups is swinging out of our shoes for home runs at USCF. (Of course, 1/3rd of those outfield pop-ups were followed by Harrelson's patented, "he just missed it by 1/32nd of an inch...")

 

Seems a lot of hitters have come to the White Sox like Swisher and Dunn and regressed.

 

If you look at our home results in 2009, 2010 and 2011....they have to be in the bottom quartile or quintile for home play versus road play in the majors.

 

You can understand watching the basic approaches of Rios, Dunn, Beckham, Ramirez and Quentin...why they either pop up or pull the ball to the left side of the infield so much. Lillibridge, too, for that matter. Flowers, basically the same thing, long swings that deliver power but also tons of groundouts, pop-ups and K's to go with it.

 

And, as noted in the article, the 2 guys who most consistently make contact (AJ and Pierre) aren't usually line drive or gap hitters, they're singles hitters, basically, with OCCASIONAL power.

 

Carlos Quentin was one of the guys lumped in with the likes of Konerko/Thome/Dye as Walker successes...and, based on where he stood as a prospect/suspect, Walker has to get SOME credit for Quentin's 2008 near-MPV season.

 

On the other hand, since that point in time, he's gone from a clear asset to, while not exactly a liability...a shadow of his former self as a hitter, which was a guy who would take you consistently to the RCF gap, hit .275-.295, not quite so streaky, much better line drive rate...etc.

 

Nobody could make arguments that Beckham or Quentin are better hitters than when they arrived in the organization. There's just no argument. Quentin always had hitting ability, he was a high draft pick and then he got injured and fell victim to a numbers game, but it's not like he suddenly "discovered" how to hit when he came to Chicago.

 

Ramirez is in that same category...at best, inconsistent. At worse, he's also regressed greatly from 2008, with the 2010 season being a "solid" season but still not like his rookie year and the Silver Slugger more based on the dearth of offense from other AL shortstops. Not quite like the heyday of Garciaparra/Jeter/Tejada, etc., putting up monster numbers.

Edited September 13, 2011 by caulfield12

[Milkman delivers]

Are you trying to make a point here or something? I do like Ozzie Guillen. I think back on the days of Jerry Manuel and I think in his case he lost the team

 

And Ozzie Guillen has not lost this team?

[Jordan4life_2007]

And Ozzie Guillen has not lost this team?

 

Of course not. 5 missed Octobers in 6 seasons in a division that does not include Boston, NY and now Tampa Bay has certainly had nothing to do with Ozzie's managerial skills.

[caulfield12]

Not as badly as Manuel did...but he's clearly gone through some stretches in the last three years or so where you could have made strong arguments that he had lost the White Sox.

 

For whatever reason, those teams in 2010 and 2011 pulled out of the 9-11 games under .500 area code and got back into those races.

 

Maybe the talent just won out over such putrid play over an extended period of time...but you have to give Guillen some credit for righting the ships in 2008, 2010 and, to some extent, 2011, at the point when we were 11-22 and the entire season could have completely fallen apart. (And yes, I realize in hindsight...even Greg Hibbard backed this up statistically, the year was basically over by the first or second week of May, even if some wouldn't acknowledge it).

 

Let's just say we crawled back to quasi-respectability. Which still isn't a positive benchmark with a $127 million roster in a, what seemed at the time, clearly wide open AL Central.

Edited September 13, 2011 by caulfield12

[Milkman delivers]

Not as badly as Manuel did...but he's clearly gone through some stretches in the last three years or so where you could have made strong arguments that he had lost the White Sox.

 

For whatever reason, those teams in 2010 and 2011 pulled out of the 9-11 games under .500 area code and got back into those races.

 

Maybe the talent just won out over such putrid play over an extended period of time...but you have to give Guillen some credit for righting the ships in 2008, 2010 and, to some extent, 2011, at the point when we were 11-22 and the entire season could have completely fallen apart. (And yes, I realize in hindsight...even Greg Hibbard backed this up statistically, the year was basically over by the first or second week of May, even if some wouldn't acknowledge it).

 

Let's just say we crawled back to quasi-respectability. Which still isn't a positive benchmark with a $127 million roster in a, what seemed at the time, clearly wide open AL Central.

 

Ugh, another thing I said people would be saying back in April as a potential reason to keep this guy around.

[caulfield12]

Ugh, another thing I said people would be saying back in April as a potential reason to keep this guy around.

 

It's a legitimate question.

 

On one side of the coin are those who say Ozzie has created an environment of complete "non-accountability."

 

So we are to believe the players fought back "just enough" to keep their manager in his position but not enough to win th division?

 

If the entire clubhouse just went completely south...wouldn't we have seen some type of "death spiral" down to 20-25 games below .500, as has happened two times with the Twins this year?

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

And Ozzie Guillen has not lost this team?

 

I don't think he has necessarily "lost" this team. They aren't at .500 because of lack of effort (except for Rios) or because of resentment towards the manager. It's a combination of bad managerial lineup decisions, extreme underacheiving & lack of development, and a few bad personnel moves by the GM.

 

The team did mail it in the night after the blown 7-run lead in DET, but I think most teams would have considering the circumstances.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It's a legitimate question.

 

On one side of the coin are those who say Ozzie has created an environment of complete "non-accountability."

 

So we are to believe the players fought back "just enough" to keep their manager in his position but not enough to win th division?

 

If the entire clubhouse just went completely south...wouldn't we have seen some type of "death spiral" down to 20-25 games below .500, as has happened two times with the Twins this year?

 

Caulfield, it was playoffs or bust this season. Save that respectability crap. That's for losers that are easily satisfied (not saying you or anybody here is a loser). Our payroll + this division should've meant a playoff birth. Or at the VERY LEAST meaningful baseball right until the end. We were done two weeks ago.

[caulfield12]

Caulfield, it was playoffs or bust this season. Save that respectability crap. That's for losers that are easily satisfied (not saying you or anybody here is a loser). Our payroll + this division should've meant a playoff birth. Or at the VERY LEAST meaningful baseball right until the end. We were done two weeks ago.

 

 

Yes, understood.

 

He's had 3 years with basically the same results.

 

The only question is whether JR sees it like the majority of hardcore Sox fans...and not the casual or disinterested ones in Lawrence, Topeka or Kansas City.

 

[TheBigHurt]

I'm glad you see the light.

 

You're a pretty good troll, I have to admit.