iamshack Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 08:04 PM) Including the Sox organization. Can anyone really say how he will work with players? He's never been in any type of role to teach, mentor, coach or anything. Seems like a huge gamble to let him start now. What if he has huge issues communicating to players or getting them to follow his lead. ?? They know him very well. They know how he interacted with others as a player...what kind of leader he was...how he is perceived as someone still involved in the game, around the League, etc. In my opinion, managing is not so much about repitition, but rather how you think, whether you are a leader, how you face adversity, how others perceive you, etc. I'm sure they have a pretty good idea about those things, and confirmed their thoughts with his work as an instructor. Edited October 7, 2011 by iamshack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Wedge @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:10 PM) Joe Cowley claiming this decision was made months ago. Says he'll have his timeline in tomorrow's column. Ventura said they brought this up to him last week. I wonder if Cowley will call him a liar. Funny Joe wrote months ago Daryl Boston would be the replacement, then a couple days ago said it would be Dave Martinez, now he says its been Ventura for months and he'll have a timeline. He's a joke. Edited October 7, 2011 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:11 PM) Balta, Why do people keep saying Ventura must have been the cheapest solution? I would have to imagine Dave Martinez or Sandy Alomar would have come cheaper. Why? Because they are both already willing to work for a bench coach salary. Any job is going to be an increase in salary, and if anything it stands to reason the Sox may have had to overpay Ventura to convince him to actually pay the job. He has consistently turned down coaching jobs, so you have to expect that his paycheck was part of the reason he said yes. How many managerial jobs did he turn down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHITESOXRANDY Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 s***, it's my fault really. I expected something different from this organization. I shouldn't have gotten excited about Martinez. Of course they were gonna hire someone completely out of the blue... This is The White Flag Hiring. We will look back on it and know it years from know... The White Sox have given up on three things: Spending money to hire someone. Hiring someone out of organization. And, giving any indication to the fan base that they will at all be in contention for the next 3+ years How were they going to be in contention anyway? They could have hired Casey Stengel , Billy Martin and Earl Weaver and they wouldn't be in contention. Remember, they still have to pay Jake Peavy $ 17 mil. next year and then a $ 5 mil. buyout. They still have to pay a worthless p.o.s .160 batting DH $ 40 mil. over the next 3 years. They have to pay Alex Rios $ 38 mil. over the next 3 years. They just gave away Dan Hudson, Gio Gonzalez and David Holmberg for nothing and had no 1st round draft pick last year. Rebuilding is the only option. I do wish that another GM was leading the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 DA, Im a fan of the move. I just was saying that he has been with the organization the last few months, and maybe behind close doors hes been making good suggestions/etc. I Who knows, nothing in life is certain. I like the move just because I think hell be different than Ozzie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) Sircaffey, Most managers get paid more than bench coaches, I cant find Dave Martinez's salary, but I expect Ventura will be paid more than him (provided he doesnt go to the Red Sox to be coach and get ridiculous money). Edited October 7, 2011 by Soxbadger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 08:07 PM) Seriously, a player doesn't care whether the stuff the manager is preaching has worked before? I don't buy that. Seriously, what kind of stuff is he going to preach? The triangle offense? Again, layoff the Beam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Well, Ventura was hired by the Sox 'months' ago, as a special... as a next manager, so there you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 07:38 PM) I find it laughable a guy who has been in baseball as long as Robin Ventura has needs to be a bench coach or a first base coach to gain experience. This is baseball, not some guy representing you while on trial for a murder you didn't commit. And besides, anyone who doesn't think he's experienced enough to be a manager, why are you giving anyone your opinions? Using your standards, your opinions are mean nothing to you, why should they matter to anyone else? I find this move genius. I don't see why Robin can't be as good as Dave Martinez, or my pick, Sandy Alomar, or Ozzie Guillen for that matter. It will also probably save a lot of season ticket accounts. We all manage games in our heads while watching. Robin has played for Torborg, Lamont, Valentine, Torre, even Bevington. He knows the difference between good and bad. He'll be well respected, he'll never embarrass the Sox. The only issuea that may take a little time is managing the bullpen, but Cooper should help with that, and I have a hard time seeing him running on to the field to argue with umpires. I really like this, and I wasn't that big of a fan of Robin Ventura the player. I think he has the perfect personality to manage and he's seems like a bright guy. Did you listen to the conference call/press conference this afternoon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 08:26 PM) Milkman, This is why I dont waste time in this forum, where did I ever say that no experience would make Ventura good? I merely stated that before everyone freaks out about no experience, that there have been successful coaches with no experience. That doesnt mean that no experience = good, it just means that no experience does not have to equal bad. I dont know if you seriously cant understand the difference, or if you feel that if you play dumb Ill somehow trip up and make an absurd statement. Ill hope for the latter. Yep, I'm very stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Interesting comment from Steve Phillips...despite his sexual proclivities, I really respect his opinion...and the point about Martinez not having a real presence is one I hadn't thought of...but again, I'm not sure Ozzie had a real presence either...he tried to overcome that by being the class clown instead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 No one else seeing this move as Kenny putting himself on the line even more now? MattSpiegel for example sees it like that, so does my huge Sox friend that doesn't frequent the board.. he also thinks we're not in rebuild mode and that he expects a solid offseason and competing next year, TTFWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:17 PM) Did you listen to the conference call/press conference this afternoon? no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:05 PM) But there's a degree of experience going into how to prep different guys in the offseason and the spring to get different guys ready. Our last manager towards the end started refusing to adapt. Now we have a guy who hasn't been involved in the game since the steroid/amphetamine era. No way he has any way to adapt his preparation style to other guys. It's a roll of the dice about whether whatever style he has will break through to these guys before April. It's a roll of the dice how the players were going to react to Dave Martinez's preparation style. Or Sandy Alomar's. Some experience on a bench doesn't make the task anymore difficult starting anew. Hell, the same goes for TLR and Francona. They've been managing elite talent for so long that we can't pretend like we know what they'd have done with this bunch in April. Point being outrage isn't an option here. None of know what Robin will bring. We can imagine fanciful scenarios but that is about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 08:27 PM) How is pointing out what people actually said mocking? The majority of posters could do a better job than Ozzie. Do we really think Robin is going to do worse than the average poster here? So I'm relaxing and feeling OK with the choice. But we also know from another poll that the average poster here could also be a better GM than KW, so maybe somewhere in there there is a possibility that Robin could be worse than Ozzie. But all he has to do to be a major upgrade is be as good as the average poster, doesn't that make you feel better about the pick? Nope, no condescension or mocking attitude there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 08:17 PM) Did you listen to the conference call/press conference this afternoon? He's probably been a part of 5 press conferences in his life before. He's played in two-thousand some MLB games...he'll get accustomed to the press conferences...Jesus, drop it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:14 PM) Sircaffey, Most managers get paid more than bench coaches, I cant find Dave Martinez's salary, but I expect Ventura will be paid more than him (provided he doesnt go to the Red Sox to be coach and get ridiculous money). Yes, Robin will get manager money. So would Martinez, except Martinez actually has negotiating leverage. I can't imagine what Robin would have said to try to negotiate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:11 PM) Ventura said they brought this up to him last week. I wonder if Cowley will call him a liar. Funny Joe wrote months ago Daryl Boston would be the replacement, then a couple days ago said it would be Dave Martinez, now he says its been Ventura for months and he'll have a timeline. He's a joke. It's funny cause Cowley is a bad journalist. QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:14 PM) Seriously, what kind of stuff is he going to preach? The triangle offense? Again, layoff the Beam. This. Guys, its MLB manager. The decisions aren't hard with modern day stats ready 24/7, unless you're Ozzie. If he can help people, which he has enough baseball knowledge and seemingly-not-asshole persona that he probably can. Is it the best hire? No. He would have been my fourth choice, but come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:18 PM) No one else seeing this move as Kenny putting himself on the line even more now? MattSpiegel for example sees it like that, so does my huge Sox friend that doesn't frequent the board.. he also thinks we're not in rebuild mode and that he expects a solid offseason and competing next year, TTFWIW. Do you really think this was KW's idea? If it was, it most likely was to keep him in the good graces of the Chairman, not that it wasn't genius, even if by accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 It wasn't a press conference. It was a conference call. Substantial difference. Bernstein did point out right afterwards that this is as excited and animated as Ventura gets, however. I dunno, I see the OUTRAGE! behind this move, it's certainly unexpected and Kenny's 10 minute explanation rang hollow. But I'm not writing off the 2012 team because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:18 PM) Interesting comment from Steve Phillips...despite his sexual proclivities, I really respect his opinion...and the point about Martinez not having a real presence is one I hadn't thought of...but again, I'm not sure Ozzie had a real presence either...he tried to overcome that by being the class clown instead... It is a good point. All the things message board people respect about Maddon/Rays/Davey M -- it's going to mean nothing in a clubhouse. Ventura brings in the playing resume, so that's something they can respect. Potentially. It's not a repeat of what happened with Quade this year. Players just simply steamrolled him. Edited October 7, 2011 by Princess Dye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:21 PM) It's funny cause Cowley is a bad journalist. This. Guys, its MLB manager. The decisions aren't hard with modern day stats ready 24/7, unless you're Ozzie. If he can help people, which he has enough baseball knowledge and seemingly-not-asshole persona that he probably can. Is it the best hire? No. He would have been my fourth choice, but come on. SoxTalk should make him a FanGraphs-based iPad app that he can use in the dugout. It can also be linked to game threads/chats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Oct 6, 2011 -> 09:20 PM) Yes, Robin will get manager money. So would Martinez, except Martinez actually has negotiating leverage. I can't imagine what Robin would have said to try to negotiate. Probably that he likes to be home in CA and really doesn't need to work, but if you want to make it worthwhile.......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedoctor Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 03:19 AM) He's probably been a part of 5 press conferences in his life before. He's played in two-thousand some MLB games...he'll get accustomed to the press conferences...Jesus, drop it seriously. how he performs on a conference call has zero correlation to how well or poorly he'll perform as sox manager next year. ozzie was great on conference calls and most couldn't wait to run him out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 He could have said, 'Thanks but no thanks" You act like Ventura needs money, he made over $60mil in his playing career. Dave Martinez needs the money, Ventura doesnt. Ventura could buy Ozzie guillen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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